The Black Experience at Grinnell College Through Collected Oral History and Documents, 1863–1954

Stuart Yeager: I have been beginning all of the histories with a quick discussion on the family background of the individual‚ and then going on trying to understand if the background of the individual was a very different experience from Grinnell. If it was‚ talk about the adjustment that you had to go through. If it wasn't‚ talk about how that natural extension made it easier for you once you got to Grinnell. I'm first interested in your parents' occupations and your parents' education.

Patricia Swansey: My mother went to the eleventh grade. My father dropped out of four grade to take care of 7 -to contribute to his family. After that‚he was self-educated. My mother was a housewife. My father was very traditional in that sense. My father was a welder.

Yeager: And your mother was a housewife. She never had any work experience?

Swansey: She had other part-time jobs. That seemed to create problems for my father. So they were not really of any long duration.

Yeager: How about your home town environment and the nature of your high school?

Swansey: I grew up in Chicago. I was born and raised in Chicago. I went to a predominantly black high school. It was probably 96 or 97% black‚ and the rest was Hispanic‚ There may have been several whites‚ but they were on their way out because the neighborhood had changed.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little bit about your religious affiliation and your parents' political affiliation?

Swansey: My parents were Baptists. Therefore‚ I was raised in the Baptist Church. Political affiliation: I can remember my mother faithfully voting democratic and that's about it. My father‚ I think‚ was a very political person in terms of what he read and what he conveyed to us‚ his different .thoughts and beliefs. They were political in nature‚ some of them. But as far as being a member of any organized group‚ political group‚ I wasn't aware of that. My father also died when I was six years old so I don't remember a whole lot.

Yeager: Can you tell me how did you choose Grinnell and what were your friends' and your parents' --well‚ I guess‚ your mother's --reactions to your coming to Grinnell? Were you actively recruited?

Swansey: My guidance counselor suggested Grinnell. I was not crazy about going to a rural community‚ My first choice was UCLA. I got accepted by Bradley in Peoria and got a financial aid package and all that. And my other possibility was Vassar at that time‚ but I didn't want to go to an all girls' school. By possibility‚ I mean that Vassar was actively recruiting “inner city“ students that year‚ and my guidance Gruns 2lor felt it was a possibility. My mother actually wanted me to stay in the Chicago area.

Yeager: So you chose Grinnell? Was the financial aid package at Grinnell reasonable?

Swansey: Yes. UCLA didn't offer any financial aid although they accepted me‚ or the financial aid wasn't enough or something like that.

Yeager: What were your goals as a student at Grinnell?

Swansey: To study abroad‚ believe it or not. I came in here as a music major and found that things like jazz and all that were not really part of the curriculum‚ and things had to be created‚ you know. After a certain point‚ I was really dissatisfied‚ and I switched to anthropology. Because I had taken a course‚ and it was really exciting and fun and all that. But to sort of fill the void of not having that musical outlet‚ along with a number of other students‚ we formed a group called “Mother F.“ I played flute. Washington Alston played bass fiddle and guitar. Eliot Lewis played piano. There were a number of black men in the group who played percussion: Dennis Moss‚ Wayne Wiley and Barry Huff‚ Jon Gray played trombone‚ And we did concerts here on campus‚ and then later on the group toured around the midwestern area. But I didn't go with them‚

Yeager: What were your primary concerns as a student at Grinnell?

Swansey: Academic concerns? Political‚ Or what?

Yeager: What things were bothering you at the time? What things were you interested in? What national events concerned you? Just‚ you know‚ as you came into Grinnell‚ what were your priorities;' What were the things that you were really concerned about?

Swansey: Racism and discrimination bothered me most‚ The quality of life for black people and our lack of ownership of resources were foremost on my mind. Black folks' legal‚ social‚ economic‚ and cultural place as second-class citizens was what I was most concerned about‚ The thinking at the time suggested that education was the way to overcome or eradicate such social ills. Although I wasn't totally convinced that was the way to go‚ I decided that that was probably the best option at the time. See for me Grinnell isn't--to me it was a natural thing to go to college. I guess maybe because at that point I was not considering marriage or anything‚ those other things that people do when they graduate from high school. So to me Grinnell was a very natural process. It wasn't something to stop and take notice‚ “Oh‚ I'm entering college. It's a big deal.“ I didn't have any real expectations in terms of I'm going to do this or I'm going to do that. Actually‚ I wasn't even sure I would finish. I remember telling my mother‚ “Yeah‚ I'm going. O.K. But I'm not going to guarantee that I'm going to bring that piece of paper back.'' That's just the way I was. This is what I'm interested in at the moment. It seems like a good idea. But in terms of making promises or commitments‚ no. Because if it no longer satisfies me or stimulates me‚ then I do something else. So‚ in terms of national events‚ I've always been interested in African affairs in particular and in international affairs in general.

Yeager: I was going to ask you later‚ but I may as well ask you now. What international clubs or what international activities were you involved in on campus?

Swansey: On campus‚ none really.

Yeager: Personally.

Swansey: Well‚ there were a number of people that I knew and had grown up with in Chicago who were very much involved in international affairs. I can remember participating in different drives like to collect medicines for people in different countries‚ food‚ clothing‚ that kind of thing; trying to raise the consciousness level of people in terms of what was happening in other countries‚ the oppression and all that. I've just always focused on Africa because that was an interest of my father's‚ and he would talk about it a lot‚ and I developed an interest from there.

Yeager: How was your father interested in Africa?

Swansey: Historically‚ culturally. I can remember going to school and being taller than other kids and--my father‚ I think‚ was a great te.acher--so he would take--I remember‚ he showed me this book of these African people who were very tall‚ and he would say this is part of your culture‚ your heritage‚ so on and so forth‚ genetics‚ that kind of thing. Considering the fact that he only went to fourth grade‚ I really appreciated his depth of knowledge about a number of different things. And we had all sorts of books all over the place. But that's how I developed that interest.

Yeager: Did you have a difficult time adjusting to the rural setting?

Swansey: I wouldn't say difficulty adjusting. I thought there were a number of things that were really very unusual‚ that were totally outside my own cultural experience‚ having grown up in an inner city and having gone to a predominantly black high school. But I don't think of those things in terms of adjustment problems or whatever it is. This is the situation. Either you can hack it or you don't. Like I say‚ there were a number of things I 'isaw that I thought were odd‚ and I thought people were a little wilder and crazier than was necessary. But as long as it was not any violation or invasion of my privacy or whatever‚ to each his @wn.

Yeager: Was this one of your earlier experiences with whites on a large-scale basis?

Swansey: Large-scale? How large is large-scale? -4

Yeager: Well‚ more than one-on-one or isolatro.instances.

Swansey: When I was growing up‚there were a group of Methodists who used to come to the inner city and take groups of us out to live in their homes for a week or two or something like that. There were whites who worked with some of the community organizations‚ things like that. But most of the people I interacted with were third-world people. But I didn't see this as any “these are white people‚“ kind of thing‚ to make any distinction. Once again‚ if you're in a situation and that's who you deal with‚ that's who you deal with. Unless it were some very pointed situation‚ something that would stand out. If it were some kind of blatant racial incident or whatever‚ of course I would remember that. But in general‚ you know--it's really hard for me to talk about it now because so many years have passed. I am no longer in that predominantly black environment.

Yeager: When did you first come to Grinnell?

Swansey: 1970.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little bit about how some of these events‚ the black power movement‚ the influence of Angela Davis‚ Black Panthers‚ some of these groups‚ how did they influence your life? Were you influenced by them?

Swansey: I think they were a big motivating factor. Although I think--well‚ growing up in Chicago--I was like maybe fourteen or fifteen years old when the Black Panthers became very well known. There were Black Panther organizations in Chicago. There are any number of black groups in Chicago. There's the Nation of Islam. There are different activists in Chicago. Martin Luther King has been there. Malcolm X has been there. You know‚ that kind of thing. I used to work for a youth organization that was concerned with community problems if somebody was getting evicted or whatever. I was in hTgh_ school when Fred Hampton was killed. I went to the apartment and saw what was there after it was all over with. I became involved in a lot of things if for no other reason than to have the information‚ to go and see what actually happened. I attended any number of rallies and marches and things like that.

Yeager: When you came to Grinnell did you feel insulated or isolated from these outside activities?

Swansey: To a certain extent‚ yes‚ in that those people were no longer with me or I with them. But I still kept in touch with people at home so I knew what was going on and I subscribed to different magazines or journals or whatever to keep me up-to-date. read different books. There are people I know who‚ you know‚ we just talk about what we're reading now and if we think it's a good book. So‚ not isolated in terms of my information flow was cut off‚ but in terms of actual physical presence‚ yes‚ to a certain extent. But there were also the black students on campus -5 who had the same interests so we sort of fed off of each other‚ motivate each other.

Yeager: Will you tell me a little bit about interaction between black students at Grinnell? You were there during‚ still the early years of CBS‚ and one of the peaks of black enrollment‚ maybe a little before‚ but still a lot of activity going on in the black community. Will you tell me a little bit about some of the activities themselves2

Swansey: Well‚ I thought it was a very creative period. There were a lot of things that were born in that period. “Mother F“‚ like I said‚ was born. The Gospel Choir was born. Cultural events‚ I think‚ we invited a lot of‚ I think‚ really interesting people‚ not just the standard people‚ you know‚ the Julian Bonds and people like that. I don't mean to put them down or anything‚ but we brought in people who had a wide variety of viewpoints. Janetta Cole who's a black woman anthropologist. There was a black man by the name of Robert Williams who challenged the validity of standardized tests and designed what he called the BITCH test-Black Intelligence Test on Cultural Homogeneity. Celestine Bloomfield wrote a fantastic play for her senior thesis that involved about half of the black students enrolled. Although few of us were theatre majors‚ I think Celes did an excellent job in pulling it all together and showing the diversity of the black cultural experience. I think it was a really good period in terms of exposure not only for the black students on campus‚ b'ut for the white students as well.

Yeager: Did you see yourselves as separatists‚ removing your selves from the college campus?

Swansey: No.

Yeager: How did you see your group? How did you see the group itself? What were some of the important elements that you saw as valuable to the group?

Swansey: The group was an assortment of individuals with a variety of backgrounds who‚ regardless of those backgrounds‚ would probably share a common and partially negative experience in that environ '\ ment just based on the fact that they were black. My perception ~f the group.. in turn\dictated my actions as well as what I saw as valuable or important elements within the group. What probably helped the group stay together was a certain desire for survival‚ our survival. I didn't really look at it in terms of the white campus or whatever. My thing was inward-looking. Once again‚ we're in a situation where the white community is there‚ period. Whether you want them to be or not. You're there. To me‚it seems that people are really consumed with--they think that black people walk around thinking about white people all the time. That's not the way I saw our group. We were thinking about helping each other to survive in the situation‚ whether that was academically‚ socially‚ politically‚ culturally or whatever. -6

Yeager: I've talked to a lot of earlier graduates about interaction‚ social interaction‚ between blacks and whites. It took place. There was a lot of interracial dating when some of the people I've talked to ... Would you confirm that and would you tell me whether that. hurt group cohesiveness in any way?

Swansey: I don't know in terms of a lot. What is a lot? I have no basis to compare that on. There were black people who dated white people. That situation existed. Whether it hurt the group.. . Was that your question?

Yeager: Was there resentment? Because s6me of the earlier graduates talked to me about how black women did not date white men as much as black males dated white females.

Swansey: Well‚ I think that trend still holds based on different census figures regarding interracial marriage.that I've seen. I don't see it as particularly significant. But black-white dating did occur. In terms of harming the community‚ there were certain people who felt more strongly against interracial dating than others‚and maybe they personally felt hurt. I don't know. Of course‚ I guess a situation like that can create tension at certain points; but as far as having any long-lasting effect on the organization as a whole‚ I don't think so. But‚ yes‚ sure‚ there were probably tense moments when the different philosophies came together or were in a confrontational kind of situation. But in terms of having any long-lasting effects‚ I don't think so. But‚ once again‚ this has been tempered with time. I knew black folks who dated white folks‚ but it didn't necessarily affect my interaction with them. I think it's important to--when you're doing this on an individual basis--this is just my perception. Maybe someone else will tell you that the organization was harmed. But to come to a situation like this and expect everybody to adhere to just one philosophy‚ whether it's this situation or any other situation‚ I think‚ is asking a bit much.

Yeager: Can you tell me about some of the activities you took part in at Grinnell?

Swansey: Most of my activities were CBS oriented.

Yeager: I do believe you went to Cairo.

Swansey: Yeahi‚‚ I did that 1972-1973‚ Are you asking about the three years I spent here at Grinnell? Or overall?

Yeager: Oh‚ was that? But that was part of your four years wasn't it? I'll get back to that‚ but I first want to know your roommate‚ sophomore roommate here--freshman roommate at the time you were a sophomore. Was her name Gwen?

Swansey: My freshman year roommate was Gwen Carter. Little Gwen-we had two Gwen Carters at the time. My roommate during my sophomore year was Sybille Scott who was a freshman at the time.

Yeager: Well‚ the Gwen Carter who's here‚ She talked about the respect that other students had for you at the college‚ black students in particular. Many of them looked up to you. She talked about your being very much involved in the back-to-Africa type‚ not back-to-Africa‚ but African culture‚ and wearing African garb‚ Can you talk a little bit about some of these things? Did you feel that you were esteemed by other students? Were you aware of that?

Swansey: I wasn't aware of it. I've been hearing about it the last two days‚ I was unaware of it really‚ Honestly‚ I think I knew there were certain people who liked me‚ We were good friends and all that kind of stuff‚ I just looked at it like that--that we were good friends and we liked each other‚ and we respected each other. And that's important to me. These last few days we've just turned it into a little joke‚ We've been kidding each other back and forth‚ But I wasn't aware of any kind of special recognition or respect.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little bit about your interests in Africa‚

Swansey: Well‚ like I said‚ I've always been interested. I didn't see the African garb as anything separate or spec:ial in the sense that I was trying to make a point or do any kind of cause or whatever‚ To me it's the same as the way you get up and put on a shirt and a pair of slacks. I enjoyed it. I think it's pretty. It does acknowledge my African heritage‚ and I'm aware of that. I was not trying to offend anyone‚ but if they were offended that was not my problem. So that was it. It was just an extension. To me everything is a continuum. So it's very hard for me to say that this year I was doing this‚ that or whatever. I still wear African garb today‚ so it's no special thing in that regard.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little bit about what students‚ faculty or administrators most influenced your life at Grinnell?

Swansey: Influenced in what way?

Yeager: Who were the stand-outs? It doesn't have to be positive. It doesn't have to be negative. People who had a major effect on your life at Grinnell‚

Swansey: My freshman year it was probably Mr. Cleaver. I think everybody--I shouldn't say generalities like that‚ but Mr. Cleaver was very giving of his time‚ and I think I grew a great deal in a literary sense due to my interaction with Mr. Cleaver. I also respected Mr. Burkle a great deal for introducing me to Camus and existentialism. Charlie Davis‚ especially. Just about all the black professors--I respected them for their intelligence‚ for their knowledge‚ for their willingness to come to a place like Grinnell‚ Iowa. It's really a tough situation for them‚ I think‚to be a faculty or staff member‚ unless you have a family and all that kind of stuff‚ to come into a place like this. So I would say all the black faculty that I care in contact with during that time. As for administrators‚ I think Connie Kimbo added a certain presence and provided a sense of stability to the school and black students in particular. I appreciate Mo Hunt for getting me through senior semester blues. As for students‚ it was “little“ Gwen Carter for always being there.

Yeager: Authors? Someone who stirred you in such a way that they were as much of an influence as an actual contact. An author that might have struck you in some way that really had an influence on your life. Sometimes people read certain authors that they're just struck with and...

Swansey: Frantz Fanon‚ lVIalcoJm X‚ Kwame Nkrumah‚ W.E.B. DuBois‚ Frances Cress-Welsing‚ Ralph Ellison‚ Jame H. Cone‚ Zora Neale Hurston‚ J.A. Rogers‚ Shirley Graham DuBois‚ Cheikh Anta Diop and Julius Nyerere to name a few. I enjoyed reading‚ but it was no special thing in terms of Grinnell that I had. Of course‚ I brought a lot of my books from home here. Returning to campus personalities‚ I also remember Glenn Leggett who was a very nice person‚ I think. To me‚ it seems that I was always in an adversarial position--well‚ not always. But Concerned Black Students were always in an adversarial position with Wally Walker. I understand to a certain extent that was part of his job to enforce the administration's policies even though they did not necessarily support the needs‚ goals or aspirations of black students on campus. But nevertheless‚ that's the way it was. Janetta Cole‚ as a black woman anthropologist. I think she came here and turned the whole campus around. Gwendolyn Brooks was here. She came over to the black cultural center. I've always admired her and especially when she became poet laureate of Illinois. Any number of people.

Yeager: Were you a member of any organizations outside of Grinnell? National organizations?

Swansey: There were a number of organizations I was involved with in Chicago. I never got hung up in that whole card-carrying trip. If they're doing something I think is positive and beneficial‚ then I'll do something for them. Now if that qualifies me as a member or not...

Yeager: Which groups did you have interaction with?

Swansey: Well‚ like I said‚ there was a youth group in Chicago that used to be a gang that decided to go straight. It was called the Conservative Vice Lords. They gave me my first job as a matter of fact. Chicago was--there were a number of gangs in Chicago at that time. And these guys decided to go straight and opened up a number of businesses in the black community with the intent of economic development. So I worked for them for a couple of years in a number of different capacities. They were always very helpful. Always encouraged me to go to school and stay in school‚ to achieve--I met a number of people there who‚ I think‚ were instrumental in my life.

Yeager: Are there any other organizations...

Swansey: I don't remember the names of them. I was not a member of NAACP or the Urban League or anything like that.

Yeager: What was your most positive personal experience at Grinnell and your most negative personal experience?

Swansey: When I knew I was going to Cairo.

Yeager: Tell me a little bit about Cairo. How did you decide to go to Cairo?

Swansey: Actually‚ I was working on trying to get into the university that's in Nigeria and Charles Seller who was‚ I think‚ the registrar at that time--I had talked to him~and he knew of my interests in going abroad and he called me one day and said‚ “Hey‚ there's a program to go to Cairo. Would you be interested?“ I said‚ “Sure.“ You know‚ Egypt is still a part of Africa so that was good enough for me. I had never been. So it was a competition. It was a grant from the Ford Foundation in a nationwide competition. And I submitted my application. The woman came out and interviewed me at Des Moines Airport. And a couple of weeks--well‚ not a couple of weeks--but sometime later I got my acceptance letter‚ and I left and went to Cairo in 1972‚ September of •72.

Yeager: What kind of an experience did you have in Cairo?

Swansey: I thought it was a great experience‚ Culturally‚ politically‚ it's a very cosmopolitan place. There are just people from all over the world with all sorts of ideas. It's a very physically attractive place. I mean I visited the pyramids I don't know how many times just to sit and look at them. The people in the northern part were‚ I think‚ quite different from people in the southern part. The people in the southern part were a little bit more relaxed and not so ...

Yeager: Did you speak Arabic?

Swansey: I didn't when I went there. I took Arabic courses so that‚ although I wasn't fluent or anything like that‚ I managed to maintain my own apartment--you know‚ the activities of daily living‚ buying food‚ telling the taxi where to take me and things like that.

Yeager: Were you part of a group? in Chicago at that time. And these guys decided to go straight and opened up a number of businesses in the black community with the intent of economic development. So I worked for them for a couple of years in a number of different capacities. They were always very helpful. Always encouraged me to go to school and stay in school‚ to achieve--I met a number of people there who‚ I think‚ were instrumental in my life.

Are there any other organizations...

Swansey: I don't remember the names of them. I was not a member of NAACP or the Urban League or anything like that.

Yeager: What was your most positive personal experience at Grinnell and your most negative personal experience?

Swansey: When I knew I was going to Cairo.

Yeager: Tell me a little bit about Cairo. How did you decide to go to Cairo?

Swansey: Actually‚ I was working on trying to get into the university that's in Nigeria and Charles Seller who was‚ I think‚ the ·registrar at that time--I had talked to him‚ and he knew of my interests in going abroad and he called me one day and said‚ “Hey‚ there's a program to go to Cairo. Would you be interested?“ I said‚ “Sure.“ You know‚ Egypt is still a part of Africa so that was good enough for me. I had never been. So it was a competition. It was a grant from the Ford Foundation in a nationwide competition. And I submitted my application. The woman came out and interviewed me at Des Moines Airport. And a couple of weeks--well‚ not a couple of weeks--but sometime later I got my acceptance letter‚ and I left and went to Cairo in 1972‚ September of •72.

Yeager: What kind of an experience did you have in Cairo?

Swansey: I thought it was a great experience. Culturally‚ politically‚ it's a very cosmopolitan place. There are just people from all over the world with all sorts of ideas. It's a very physically attractive place. I mean I visited the pyramids I don't know how many times just to sit and look at them. The people in the northern part were‚ I think‚ quite different from people in the southern part. The people in the southern part were a little bit more relaxed and not so ...

Yeager: Did you speak Arabic?

Swansey: I didn't when I went there. I took Arabic courses so that‚ although I wasn't fluent or anything like that‚ I managed to maintain my own apartment--you know‚ the activities of daily living‚ buying food‚ telling the taxi where to take me and things like that.

Yeager: Were you part of a group?

Swansey: There were nine of us selected in this program1 and that was it.

Yeager: You were not the only black student?

Swansey: No. There were nine black students.

Yeager: Oh‚ it was all black students. Was it a special program for black students?

Swansey: I don't think so‚ because there were some other--I don't remember minorities being a part of it. It could have been. I just don't remember that. But there were other Americans‚ white Americans‚ who were there. Maybe they were there on a different-they were definitely there on a different program or whatever. But there were nine blacks in my group‚ the group that I was in.

Yeager: You came back from Cairo1 and you were elected CBS spokesperson while you were away.

Swansey: In absentia‚ yes.

Yeager: It must have been an honor for you.

Swansey: Yes‚ it was. I was a little uneasy about it though because I didn't know what had been going on--I mean I just had snatches of what had been going on so I was a bit uncomfortable abmit it because I felt that I hadn't been on campus to know what the issues were while I was gone. Of course‚ I was very honored but a little bit uneasy about it because I didn't know what was going on.

Yeager: What types of activities did CBS accomplish during your leadership? Major things--political. When did it take over the library? Was that during your leadership?

Swansey: No.

Yeager: The taking over of the forum?

Swansey: that. The forum? We didn't take over the forum. I wasn't--I don't remember

Yeager: Maybe the forum wasn't taken over.

Swansey: Maybe that was another incident. But during the Burling Library take-over‚ that was‚ I think‚ in 1972‚ I was a sophomore then. I'm trying to remember who was CBS spokesman then. Oh‚ that's terrible. I just can't remember.

Yeager: What types of things--do you remember anything that stood out in your year of leadership at CBS?

Swansey: Not especially. It seemed like the same old hassle to -11 me. There were the usual social events to plan and implement‚ student complaints and/or issues to deal with and resolve as well as continue to improve the quality of life for black students and maintain a low attrition rate. We did experience some difficulty in keeping black students here. Of course‚ life was a lot busier for me then. I was just trying to hold things together.

Yeager: And graduate.

Swansey: Well‚ yes‚ graduate. I was taking on especially heavy load because Grinnell didn't accept all my credits.

Yeager: What was your major?

Swansey: Anthropology. I wanted to do a double major in anthropology and journalism. And I was trying to finish up my journalism requirement in Cairo and worked on their student. newspaper. But I had a problem with how many column inches I completed because our school newspaper was censored by the government so there were a lot of times they just went through and crossed out things‚ and I don't know what other way to say that.

Yeager: Your school newspaper was censored by the U.S. government?

Swansey: Not the U.S. government‚ the Egyptian government. The school's newspaper was not printed on campus and apparently there was a censor at the printer's who read and edited any and everything that was printed for public distribution. So I bombed out on my jounalism requirement. Forget it. I already had my anthro major anyway. But I had taken a number of steps to try and do journalism.

Yeager: Can you give me a profile of things that you've done career-wise and otherwise‚ personally‚ after Grinnell?

Swansey: Right now I'm finishing up a master's in management at Brandeis University‚ And working in a consultant capacity just as a job. You know‚ income.

Yeager: Consulting in what‚ area?

Swansey: Right now I'm working on a project that has to do with CETA. And it's trying to assess the impact of the jobs factory program which is a program for kids. It gives them interviewing skills and‚ you know‚ just all these different skills they need to go out and land a job. Part of it is--the test of it is--that after you go through the program you go out and land your own job. What I'm doing is talking--the employers are the unit of analysis in terms of the job that I'm doing. So I go out and interview them.

Yeager: When you got out of Grinnell‚ did you go right into the master's program?

Swansey: No. I went to Boston. Well‚ I went back to Chicago‚ stayed there for a couple of weeks‚ came back to Grinnen and stayed for a month with my friend‚ Gwen Carter‚ and then went to Boston. And my first job was in the state house in the governor's office of minority affairs. And that governor lost so I was out of a job and worked for the black caucus‚ the Massachusetts black caucus.

Yeager: Was Ed Kirk involved there at that time?

Swansey: This was the state...

Yeager: Oh‚ state caucus. I'm sorry.

Swansey: Worked with them doing constituent work and that kind of stuff‚ then moved into the legislative side of it‚ drafting legislation and stuff. I know I'm forgetting something in there somewhere. Then I think I went to the department of manpower.

Yeager: You've had a lot of varied experiences.

Swansey: Well to me‚ it was all the same because it was all bureaucratic. Most of my satisfaction came from doing constituent work. I felt a certain sense of accomplishment when somebody's lights were turned on or--just the different daily problems that people have--and the fact that I understood the bureaucracy. They would come to me with a problem‚and I'd say‚ “You call this person--you call that person.“ I'd actually do the calling for them and help them resolve their problems. So that gave me the most satisfaction. I went to the department of manpower and stayed there a couple of years and ended up in the master's program at Brandeis.

Yeager: And that's where you are today. Sw.ansey: Yeah. I hope to--I'm considering a career in banking now--international banking.

Have you been to Africa since...

Swansey: No. I went to Africa in 1970‚ to Nigeria and stayed for a couple of weeks. And the next time I went was when I went to Cairo.

Yeager: Are you still to this day very much concerned with the issues that are going on in Africa? S~ansey: Oh‚ yes. Definitely‚ but I think it has become more global in that it's not only Africa now. It's what's happening all over the world. Africa just happens to be of special interest. But I also look at what's going on in South America. I look at what's going on in America. It's not to say that my interest is to the exclusion of domestic things. I'm very much interested in what goes on in this country and what happens to people in this country. But if you asked me special interest‚ it's Africa. -13

Thank you very much.

Swansey: Sure.