The Black Experience at Grinnell College Through Collected Oral History and Documents, 1863–1954

Edith Renfrow Smith: Yes, she is.

Yeager: Oh, where is she living?

Smith: In Stockton, California.

Jordan: Do you have her address?

Jordan: How do you spell that?

Yeager: That's too bad.

Smith: Yes. And if you had talked to her last summer, she would have been fine, but just this past fall,, she's had to go in the nursing home. And, of course, it all depends. It's like all older people. She has her good days and bad days. So, if you get her -- and any questions you might have, you might give them to her husband and he would be able to secure the information for you on her good day.

Yeager: O.K. She lives in Stockton, California. Is that near San Francisco by any chance?

Smith: It's about fifty miles.

Jordan: Stuart was in San Francisco last weekend.

Smith: Oh, I see. Well, that would have been a -- I hadn't been out here last week so... Because you could have called him. It was close enough.

Yeager: I would have gone down there. I wanted to ask you first off a couple of questions about your mother before we get to your own experience. Your mother's name was...

Yeager: They went the same year?

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: O.K. Did she graduate?

Smith: No.

Yeager: She went --

Smith: I don't know how long.

Yeager: You don't know how long.

Smith: No, I don't know how long.

Yeager: O.K.

Smith: Well, as far as I know, there weren't that many here then. Because my mother has never spoken of them. So if they lived here, she didn't know about it. So I don't think. they --

Wieman: None of her relatives went?

Smith: No.

Yeager: Well, in your family anyways, or in the town of Grinnell, to come to Grinnell.

Smith: Yes, she's the only one. I'm sure she was the only one.

Smith: She decided to take up nursing. And she went to Kansas City.

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: Couldn't find him anywhere.

Smith: I don't understand that.

Yeager: Couldn't locate his name.

Yeager: You don't happen to know how that was spelled?

Wieman: What year was that, Edith?

Smith: Well, he was here at the same time the -- Campbell, --

Yeager: Yes. I have --

Jordan: Do you have any idea of the spelling?

Wieman: Well, if you looked in that class register and there was a very foreign sounding name --

Smith: I have that in a book that he signed at our house and I don't know where -- I hope I can find it. It's an old book that mother had and I haven't looked at that book for years.

Yeager: Did all the Grinnell students sign that book?

Smith: No, no. He just happened to sign it because -- Oh, he did the caligraphy, so that was why it was so outstanding, because I write so terrible.

Yeager: Do you know anything else about him?

Smith: That's all.

Smith: Oh, yes, See, all of those fellows --- the reason I know about them is because I was just a little girl and they came to the house on Sunday afternoons and my sister played the piano and they would sing and Mom always had something for them.

Yeager: So you wouldn't be able to recall anything specific about any of these people other than their names, probably.

Smith: Nothing other than the name. And then one of the fellows was my sister's boy friend.

Smith: No, no.

Yeager: Right. And he's past away, right?

Smith: Yes.

Smith: Well, he's still living.

Yeager: He is?

Smith: Yeah. And --

Jordan: No, he's not living now.

Smith: He's not living now? Well, when did he die?

Yeager: I have no record of him. He's lost.

Yeager: Do you have any idea where he's living?

Smith: Well, I could ask my sister because --- the last time, I think, she said he was living in New York. Now, I'm not sure.

Yeager: In the city?

Smith: In the city of New York. But I can find out. One of my two sisters knows where.

Smith: Well, I'll ask her because she'll probably know because she keeps tabs with lots of people.

Yeager: Which sister is this?

Yeager: And is she living in Washington?

Smith: She lives in Forestville, Maryland. That's right out of ---

Yeager: I live in Maryland.

Smith: Oh, do you?

Yeager: Yeah.

Smith: Well, you know, it used to be Suitland and they changed the post office to Forestville. That's where she still lives.

Smith: All I know is that they sent those boys here and paid their way.

Smith: Yes.

Smith: Probably none. Only thing, he spoke French fluently and they were very literate and they probably were --- they were liberal. And they were happy to have him. Because at that time Grinnell was not a liberal town at all. There were many well, it was just like living in the South almost in some places -- because, they couldn't go up to the movie. They had to sit up -if you went to the movie, you had to sit upstairs.

Yeager: And the restaurants were very restricted

Wieman: Where did the other fellows live?

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: I was just curious. He is living in Maryland and I'm going to be seeing him over the vacation.

Smith: Did you know we always considered him more Indian than anything else.

Yeager: Why is that?

Smith: I don't know. I guess it's just because when I was a little girl we just thought he was an Indian.

Wieman: That's interesting ..

Smith: It was.

Yeager: Did he have contacts with your home also?

Smith: Oh, yes. I don't think any of them didn't come to the house.

Yeager: From when to when? From what period to what period?

Smith: Oh, well, don't ask me about that because I was too small.

Yeager: No, I haven't. I'm going to.

Smith: Now, I think she would be a very good person to talk to.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little bit --- you talked on the tape about Professor Wittler and you mentioned that he had encouraged you to come to Grinnell.

Smith: Yes, because he told me that I could be a secretary if I came to Grinnell College.

Yeager: So, he offered you a job.

Smith: Well it was through the college. It wasn't outside the college. It was through the college that he said he would take me as his secretary.

Yeager: I see. So that enabled you to support yourself through school?

Smith: Well, it helped.

Yeager: It helped.

Smith: It helped. I mean, you can't, no, if my mother hadn't lived here, I wouldn't have been able to go to school, because, you see, I didn't have to pay any board and room.

Yeager: So you went home during the dinner hour.

Smith: Yes. Except when it was twenty-six below.

Yeager: I was wondering. So you weren't actively recruited by the college at all, other than just through this ---

Smith: Oh, no. Well, I mean, they didn't recruit me at all. I recruited myself because I --- see my other sisters had gone to --- one had gone to Ames and one had gone to Fisk. But I said I wasn't going to college unless I'd go to Grinnell College.

Yeager: Why was that?

Smith: Oh, I just loved it. And as long as I can remember we had been corning --- we always came up for the concerts and we came up for Vespers on Sunday afternoon. And Mrs. Conard was our Campfire leader and then I belonged to the Uncle Sam's Club which was a part of the social work that the college did and Rebecca came down and so really from as long as I can remember we had been associated with the college students and it always seemed like they were so interesting and they always did such great things. I recruited myself. And Professor Wittler just helped.

Yeager: So you did work for him after you got to Grinnell? And you worked as a secretary.

Smith: Oh, yes.

Yeager: Was that the whole four years?

Smith: And then I also worked over in the, oh, where they did the duplicating, you know.

Wieman: Oh, yes, service bureau, whatever it was called.

Smith: Well, whatever it was. It was in the administration building.

Wieman: Yeah. Thirty-five cents an hour.

Smith: Yeah. Well, it was good money.

Wieman: That's right. That was good money.

Smith: Yeah. That was great money.

Yeager: At that time, what type of occupational goals did you have? What were you planning on doing with your degree?

Smith: Oh, I was going to be a psychiatric social worker.

Yeager: When did you change your mind?

Smith: They changed it for me. were a senior, they took to people who would hire person who would hire me When, you know, back then, when you you to Chicago and introduced you you after graduation. Well, the only was the YWCA. You take what you get.

Yeager: Do you think that was because of race?

Smith: Yes, that was because of race. You see, one of the things that --- I don't know whether counselors didn't know any employers who would employ Negroes or whether they did. They probably didn't know any and there probably weren't that many who would. Because back there, you know, it was very difficult for you to do anything other than housework.

Yeager: Especially for a woman, I would think.

Smith: Yeah. Well, for men either. I mean, men, they didn't have that great an opportunity to do anything other than teach or be a mail carrier.

Yeager: I think that was the third or fourth black alumni that got involved in YMCA. Kitchen worked for the USO. And Redman worked for the YMCA for a period of time.

Smith: Yeah. Well, you see, when we have a limited horizon, you have to take the one that offers the --- and, see seventy-five dollars a month was a lot of money.in those days.

Yeager: What were your primary concerns as a student at college?

Smith: Meaning?

Yeager: Oh, academic, social, political.

Smith: No political.

Yeager: Nothing political.

Smith: No. Nothing political. I wasn't interested in politics in those days. We were just interested in having enough to eat.

Wieman: Brown went on a starvation diet. Don't you remember that?

Smith: Oh, yes. But he --- we always thought he was cracked. Cause, you know we always thought that he was very eccentric.

Wieman: He was.

Smith: And very strange. Fasting for what? You know.

Wieman: I can't remember now.

Smith: I don't remember either.

Wieman: Sorry I interrupted.

Jordan: What about extra-curricular activities?

Smith: Well, let me see. Whatever they had.

Wieman: I didn't have any in college. I couldn't get in the glee club.

Smith: Well, I did belong to the not the regular glee club, but you know the other one?

Wieman: No.

Smith: Well they had two. So, since I wasn't good enough for the first one, I ---

Wieman: I didn't even get in the second one.

Smith: Well, I did. We used to practise over in the Music Hall.

Wieman: Qh, for heaven's sakes.

Smith: And you know that Professor Pierce was very unhappy to have a black person in his choir. He almost died. Even though Anna May had worked for him. But Anna May was their maid so that was different.

Wieman: That was different.

Smith: That was a big difference.

Jordan: Did you find prejudice from the faculty? Or from the student body?

Smith: Well, you know, I think being a Negro you --- it just doesn't, you know --- . Now I knew that Professor Sherman didn't like Negroes. And I didn't think Professor Baurr.an liked them either. Neither one of them were important, so --- So you don't like me, so what? So, I mean, you know, that was the feeling. And all of the students that I came in contact with were very nice to me. So consequently I said I didn't --- I didn't get the feeling that so many people did of --- cause I feel that they're people just like anyone else if --- Some people you like and some people you don't like. So you have a right to your preference. So I said --- you know, that's why I ignored it. At least it didn't bother me. You see many people are bothered by it, but to me it doesn't bother me. •

Yeager: What about some of the other students at Grinnell. Was it a a very negative or a positive reaction?

Smith: Well, they had, as far as I could see, they had a very positive reaction, and I was, you know, they tried to make the town students feel very at home and so we were affiliated with a cottage. I was affiliated with James. And, you know, we had the Colonial Ball in February. I had a very good time. We wore the costumes and what-have-you. And they did the Virginia reel and what-have-you, so -- at least, I didn't feel anything. Now, maybe other people did, but I didn't.

Yeager: O.K.

Smith: And I think that when you live in the town it's altogether different from coming into a city when you don't know the city. See, Grinnell was home.

Yeager: Yeah.

Smith: And so many of the people I associated with I had associated with all through school from the time I started. So it wasn't like coming into a community where you have to make new friends. Because most of the people I met when I came to Grinnell College I had known when I was in high school or before. And even the college students I had known because they had come to the club house, what they called Uncle Sam's Club.

Yeager: O.K. Did you have any contact with the blacks that came to Grinnell during World War II training?

Smith: No.

Yeager: You didn't have any ---- your family didn't have any contact with any of them?

Smith: Well, my mother did. But I wasn't home during World War II. I was gone. See in '37 I left.

Jordan: Did she ever speak much about that?

Smith: My mother?

Jordan: Yes.

Smith: She talked about them but, see, by that time Mother was old, much older.

Jordan: And there were no younger children at home.

Smith: There was no one there but her and if they came by she was very pleasant, but, you know, my house is quite a ways, unless they were going to the cemetery, they didn't pass it. And they no longer went to Arbor Lake. You see, we used to go to Arbor Lake and the students used to go to Arbor Lake and they'd come by the house and cut across the cow pasture going to the lake rather than go down West Street. But by that time Arbor Lake was no longer important. If they came they just walked down. I don't know how many students they had, colored students, they had then, if any, I don't know. I don't remember. I know that Alphanette White came up.

Yeager: Oh, yeah. Alphanette White. She ---

Smith: Now, Alphanette's mother was the Girl Reserve secretary when I went to the Y. Alphanette was just a little girl then.

Yeager: Were you the only black student at Grinnell at that time?

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: We have another student, Ralph West.

Smith: If he was here, he didn't stay.

Yeager: O.K. So you didn't know each other. O.K. I was just curious. Did you discuss --- Now there was no NAACP in Grinnell, but several, I believe .1. of the alumni mentioned that there was some other organization that took the place of NAACP before it was formed in the late 50's and earlier there was no --- Uncle Sam's Club was the only social type organization.

Smith: Well, see, Uncle Sam's Club was for all the children who lived in that end of town. So it·wasn't because we were black or anything else. It was just that it was in that end of town. And it was for those children who didn't have anything to do on Sunday afternoon and it gave those students who were going into social work, or whatever they were going into, an opportunity to work with young children. And that's what they did. And, you know, thay had the clubs. And I think that's why Mrs. Conard had the Blue Birds, the Girl Scouts, I mean not Girl Scouts, Campfire Girls.

Jordan: I gather from what you've said that as your generatifon came of age, your family and the Lucas famtly, people left Grinnell. And so the situation one finds as you go into the 1940's and the 1950's would be fewer and fewer black people ---

Smith: As they died out. They really didn't leave. They died out. They stayed here until they died.

Jordan: The parent generation. But you and your sisters, for example, left, and ---

Smith: Well, yeah, but the parent generation died. It wasn't that they moved away from Grinnell. I think that the only family -- Well, no Mrs. Tibbs died here. I think that most of the ones who had lived here died and then if there were any young ones they moved away. But other than that

Yeager: Was there any reason for that or just that they were pursuing a career?

Smith: Well, I mean, what they were doing, it wasn't that they were pursuing a career, they were pursuing a job. See, Grinnell was not a-~- At that time we had the glove factory. And after the glove factory we had the shoe factory. Well, the glove factory would hire no Negroes. And I don't know about the shoe factory because that came later. And I think my uncle was the only one who worked for the Spaulding Automobile.

Yeager: And that was John Lucas.

Smith: John Lucas.

Yeager: O.K. I was curious --- you mentioned in your piece about Alice not thinking that Grinnell was a very good place because of a lot of racism or snobbiness or whatever and that she went to Hampton because she thought it would be better.

Smith: Well, she went to Hampton because she could afford to go to Hampton. My brother had been there, and he was the one that was going to help her. Of course children in a family have different experiences. She was older. She had had a harder time than I did. The family was poorer when she came along. And so I'm sure that she got many more hard knocks than we did. Because I know that you know that in families the older ones try to shield the younger ones from the same sort of things that they had. I'm sure that they experienced many experiences that I didn't have.

Yeager: Can you tell me are any of the people who cooked at the college still living? Oscar Monroe?

Smith: Oscar Monroe is dead. Now whether Addie is dead, I do not know. Oscar's brother, George, may be still living in Kirksville, Missouri. I don't know.

Yeager: Oscar's brother?

Smith: George. He was a second cook.

Yeager: Kirksville?

Smith: Kirksville. That's just a little way over the border into Missouri. I don't know how far. But you know who used to keep in touch with Addie was Dick Ulrich.

Yeager: Dick Ulrich.

Jordan: He lives here in town.

Smith: He used to --- See, they used to play cards with them all the time. So he used to keep in touch with Addie. So I don't know whether he still does. And I don't know whether she's dead.

Yeager: O.K. Can you give me an idea of how many people in town, black people in town, worked for the college. I got some idea from the tape.

Smith: Well, my uncle worked at --- at the Quadrangle.

Yeager: Uncle John?

Smith: No. This was Uncle Saul. He was my Aunt Annie's husband and Aunt Annie was the --- had a hair dressing establishment downtown.

Yeager: Right. Transformations.

Smith: Yeah, she made transformations, but before then she had had a beauty parlor uptown on Broad Street in the block where Dr. Carney is now. In fact she was up the stairway with Dr. Brock who was a dentist.

Yeager: Now, Uncle Saul worked for --- was he one of the --

Smith: He was a cook, head cook, at the Quadrangle.

Yeager: And he's no longer living.

Smith: No. He died quite a while ago, about eight years ago I guess.

Yeager: If we'd only started this about ten years ago, we'd have a tremendous project.

Smith: That's the way a lot of us feel.

Yeager: For some, it's a little late. Now, is that the only other ---

Smith: Yes, he was the only one. Addie and Oscar and George worked at the men's dorm and Uncle Saul was over here.

Yeager: What about other administrative positions? No other positions?

Smith: No. Not any I know of. I never saw any up here.

Yeager: And a lot of people worked as domestics for professors then.

Smith: Yes. But there weren't that many to work as domestics because there weren't that many left in the town. I think Anna May worked for Professor Pierce because she was up here and my sister Evanel worked for the .Frisbies. They ran the newspaper. But she was in high school then.

Yeager: Evanel, is she .still living?

Smith: Oh, yeah.

Yeager: She's the youngest of the----

Smith: I'm the youngest. She's the next. And Alice is the next. That's the youngest, the next youngest and the next that are still living.

Yeager: And where is she living? Where is Evanel living?

Smith: Savannah, Georgia. She's the one that went to Ames.

Yeager: Clifton Lamb mentioned in his tape that he was thinking about either going to Grinnell or the University of Iowa and he said that the University of Iowa was very racist

Smith: It was. They were much --- Well, of course, Grinnell didn't consider itself racist anyway. Because, you know, this had • been an underground railroad city. And Grinnell had had a station, an underground railroad station. So on the foundation of this college, it shouldn't have been racist. So I'm sure that's something that he had on the back of his mind when he came. And the University of Iowa has --- well, when my sister moved to Iowa City they had no black students on campus at all. That's why she kept students. So it's only recently that they have allowed students to stay on campus.

Yeager: O.K. Can you tell me a little bit about your mother? Since she did go to the Grinnell Academy, she'd be one of the first women --- I think she'd probably be maybe the second

Smith: My mother was a lady before her time. My mother was a health fanatic before anyone was. We couldn't eat white bread. We had to eat oatmeal for breakfast and cornmeal mush. We had to eat no white bread at all. And everything she fixed was supposed to be --- you know, she talked about nutrition all the time. We couldn't eat tomatoes out of an aluminum pan because she used to say that she was sure they must cause cancer. In those days people thought aluminum was great. She said,"No aluminum. Anything that will take the color out of aluminum, it must take some of the metal out so you can't eat the stuff."And we couldn't have sweets, candy, no junk. And, you know, that was a person before her time.

Yeager: What did your mother do after she went to the academy? She went to the academy for just a year or so?

Smith: Yes. Then she went South to teach her cousin's children --as a governess to her cousin's children in Mound Bayou, Mississippi. And her cousin's husband was the first mayor of Mound Bayou.

Yeager: Did she ever talk about her experiences in Mississippi?

Smith: Nothing other than talking about the children that she took care of and about her ---

Yeager: Then she came back up.

Smith: Yes, then she came back here.

Jordan: Well, did she explain how she came about attending the academy.

Smith: Oh, no, school. she never said. She just said that she always loved Her sisters didn't like school and she did. And she said she always had her nose in a book. And then living with Uncle John, maybe that's why. I don't have any idea.

Wieman: Where had she gone to school?

Smith: She must have gone to school while she was with Uncle John.

Wieman: Right here in Grinnell.

Smith: And then in Oskaloosa before she came up here.

Wieman: Do you know how far she got?

Smith: No. I have no idea.

Yeager: O.K. So once your mother came back to Grinnell, did she stay at home and raise children?

Smith: No. She worked for Professor Franklin. Johnson. Franklin Johnson. She worked for Franklin Johnson. And I think that's the only one --- that's the only person I can remember. My mother was very active in church and with the WCTU and the missionary society. At that time we belonged to the Congregational --- my father was a Congregationalist so we belonged to the Congregational Church so I think that's one reason why she did that.

Jordan: Do you recall if in the years when you were growing up there were many speakers who came to the college or much attention that was ever given to the race question? I know that very early in the century, Professor Steiner brought W. E. B. Du

Smith: Bois to the campus but we haven't been able to tell what level of awareness there might have been or involvement with national issues --- Well, he was such an outstanding person that he was just a name that was talked about a lot in the house. I don't remember whether my mother came to the lecture or anything but that he was talked about a lot because they thought that he was such a wonderful person. And, of course, my father thought Marcus Garvey was the greatest. He talked about him a lot. But we were small and weren't aware of what was going on.

Yeager: What did your father do?

Smith: He was a chef.

Yeager: He was a chef. He wasn't a chef at the college?

Smith: He was a chef at the Monroe Hotel.

Yeager: The Monroe Hotel.

Jordan: We have some marvelous memoirs of Grinnell students who served tables and washed dishes and helped in the kitchen.

Smith: With Saul Brown?

Jordan: No, I'm talking about the Monroe Hotel.

Smith: Oh, at the Monroe Hotel.

Yeager: It's no longer ---

Smith: Oh, no, they have what they call the low housing for senior citizens.

Jordan: It was torn down in the early 7O's.

Smith: Yes. And that's where the underground railroad was.

Yeager: Oh. Was that whole story told to you by your parents?

Smith: What? The underground railroad?

Yeager: The underground railroad.

Smith: Oh, yes. And when they had --- Was that the Sesquicentennial we had?

Wieman: Yes.

Smith: My mother was in the pageant.

Wieman: They reenacted that.

Smith: And there should be a good write-up in the paper as well as some pictures.

Yeager: As a student at Grinnell, if you were the only black student in the whole school,--- you did live in town --- Did the students ask you a lot of questions about being black? Or was that not discussed at all?

Smith: Oh, no, they didn't. Well in the first place, I never knew I was black.

Yeager: Oh, really?

Smith: No, I didn't. That's what my husband always tells me now. He says,"You don't know you're black."Well, he does. He says,"You came up in the wrong environment. You don't think right. 11

Wieman: Well you did grow up in a unique situation.

Smith: I think it really was. And then too with my mother being the sort of person that she was. You know, she always taught us --- She said,"I don't care who it is, there is no one born any better than you are. They may have more money and they may be more beautiful. They may have outward things. But there's no one any better."So naturally if you're taught there's no one any better than you are, why you think you're pretty special. And so, I think that that made a great difference. I don't know whether she didn't talk that much to the other girls and my brother, or that my brother and I were just the youngest and she talked to us a lot. And then maybe she wasn't so harrassed. You know, when you only have --- there's six years between the next oldest and the last two, so you might have more time. And my mother was a great story teller. And I'm so sorry that we didn't have a tape recorder. She could quote Paul Laurence Dunbar and speak that dialect. It was beautiful! And no one --- I don't know anyone today --- who can speak it like she did. And she told us such great stories all the time. And she had a lot of information about her father's family and her mother's family that she told us. A..~d then, too, my mother, when she felt like it, she'd go and she'd play the piano. Well this was something that I don't think many children had that their mother would take the time to go and just bang on the piano because her kids wanted her to.

Jordan: You did say that you avoided someone like Professor Sherman or Professor Bauman.

Smith: I didn't avoid him. I just knew that he would rather not be bothered.

Jordan: So do you think that was, in the absence of any discussion even from students, something not talked about as much. Because we do find from interviews that Stuart has done with many of the blacks that were here later, the constant questioning and both honest curiosity and sometimes a matter of, it just seems, out of ignorance.

Smith: I don't know. I really have no idea because they never did. And the students, they came to my house. And they would have me come up to the college to stay and they wouldn't --- I mean, it was never as if you're a curiosity or you're different or anything like that. So that's why I say that I just never felt that they looked at me as though I was something different.

Yeager: What was the most positive and most negative experiences that you had at Grinnell as a student?

Smith: Well, I don't remember any negative experiences. I had all· positive ones as far as I can remember. Except that I felt that --- oh, I cannot think of the name of that English professor

Wieman: Woman?

Smith: Yes.

Wieman: Hunter?

Smith: Hunter. Edith Hunter. I told you her name was Edith Hunter.

Wieman: Grace.

Smith: Grace. Grace Hunter. You know, she's the one I told you used to go the cemetery to write. But now, when I was in her class, she would never give me anything but a C.

Yeager: Oh, really.

Smith: Yes. Nothing above a C. But I should say that one of the nicest experiences I had was when my economics professor - - - and that was Klerrrne ---

Wieman: ProfessorKlerrrne-.

Smith: Yes. I thought he was a great professor. Well, I liked economics anyway and I liked Professor Klemme.

Yeager: So you have no single positive experience that sticks out.

Smith: I just enjoyed my four years at Grinnell. I really did. I think it was one of the most pleasant times in my life. And I can't think of anything that --- nothing --- you know, no one --- I just have never felt that anyone thought I was important enough to go out of their way to be negative.

Yeager: To what degree were the issues of race discussed?

Smith: Never. Race never came up.

Yeager: Not in the class?

Smith: Not in the class. No one ever mentioned race. And to sort of point up the feeling of race --- well, I have two girls. Our little girl was seven years old and she came home from lab school one day and she said,"Momma, am I Chinese?"Now you could see what color I am. But, see, she never --- And the reason she asked that question was that they had been discussing Chinese at school. Not as far as color or anything, I don't think. But she just came home and asked if she were Chinese. I said,"No, you're not Chinese.Ii

Yeager: Was there anyone in your family --- I know it's very early in that period --- Was there anyone in the family who was --- you said your mother was before her time in certain respects --- Was there anyone in your family or in the town of Grinnell whom you would refer to as --- not a civil rights type person but someone who was very concerned about social issues.

Smith: I didn't know anybody.

Wieman: Mrs. Conard and Mr. Steiner.

Smith: Well, yes, but you know that wouldn't be anything ..

Wieman: They were college people.

Smith: They were college people and my association with Mrs. Conard was when she came --- with us when we went to camp and she came out and taught us about the stars. Of course, Rudy worked for Mrs. Conard. And that was the only time he ever got sick. She baked bananas for him.

Jordan: You told that story on the tape.

Smith: Yes. Oh, he felt awful. He didn't like bananas until the day he died.

Smith: They may have been, but they were oustanding members of the community so consequently and --- weren't they Jewish?

Wieman: The Steiners were Jewish.

Smith: Yes. And I think that the Jewish people in the community had a much harder time than I did. At least from what I

Jordan: Well, of course, he had been raised Jewish, but he had converted at the time ---

Smith: Yes.

Wieman: But there were a few Jewish families in town.

Smith: Yes. We had the Bermans.

Wieman: And the Spectors.

Smith: Is he the one that had the shoe store?

Wieman: No, that was Bucksbaum.

Smith: Bucksbaum. But we really did have a cosmopolitan town because we had Joe Marcellino. You know, he always had those Italian --- Greek --- dinners out at his house. And he had all kinds of students c0.rne out there.

Yeager: Is Rudy still living.

Smith: No. He died.

Yeager: He has sons that

Smith: He has one son. And he'll be nineteen the seventeenth of May.

Yeager: His name is ---

Smith: Lee. Lee James.

Yeager: Does the name Collis Davis ring a bell?

Smith: Yes. He was another one that came to the house a lot. And then he was at Hampton when Rudy was there.

Yeager: I was going to ask about that. Was there some kind of a connection there. Did the family know ---

Smith: No. My mother sent Rudy to Hampton because she said he wouldn't be able to make a living unless he had a trade. He would have been a wonderful farmer. _But .he· was a brick-layer. And then after he had become a brick-layer he couldn't get into the brick-layers' union.

Yeager: There was a restriction.

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: I know it's beyond your time, but do you know anything at all --- Did anyone in town ever mention the Hampton Program, the Hampton Exchange Program?

Smith: I heard about it. From whom did I hear about it? I think I heard about it from·carol; didn't I?

Wieman: I don't know.

Smith: You know her niece was here at the time and I think it was just mentioned. But that's all I know.

Yeager: Carol ---

Wieman: What year was Carol Vogt?

Smith: Carol Zigemeier -- Carol Vogt, yes.

Wieman: What year was the Hampton Exchange?

Yeager: It started in '46 and it went through '54 or '55. I know you were gone by then, but did you have any contact---

Smith: No.

Jordan: And, of course, by that time Collis Davis was registrar at Hampton and helped facilitate the program.

Smith: I'm sure that he would have been a prime instigator in such a program.

Yeager: Is his wife still living do you know?

Smith: Whose? Collis Davis's? I don't even know them.

Yeager: You don't even know them.

Smith: No, because Collis Davis wouldn't remember me because I was ---

Yeager: You were so young.

Smith: I think I was only about six or so.

Jordan: The students who were here in the late teens and through the twenties, did they maintain contact with your family after they left?

Smith: Some of them. Alphonse Henninger and Carl Saunders.

Wieman: Is he still living?

Smith: I don't know. A number of years ago when my sister was living, she came to Chicago and he was an engineer for the city water department.

Yeager: In Chicago?

Smith: In Chicago. But, see, he would be way up in his seventies now, so

Jordan: Well, we noticed that three of the earliest black graduates went on to Harvard about this time. I've written to Harvard to try to get more information on them but ---

Smith: Who are they?

Jordan: Collis Davis, Alphonse Henningburg went to Harvard didn't he?

Yeager: Leo Welker.

Smith: Who?

Jordan: Leo Welker.

Smith: He's one of the names I don't know because he probably was one of the ones who didn't come to the house.

Yeager: 1903. Class of '03.

Jordan: He was the first and then James Redmon about 1909 to 13.

Yeager: Hosea Booker Campbell. Do you know anything about him?

Smith: Yeah. He was very strange when he was here. I thought he would lose his mind. Is he all right now?

Yeager: We don't know if he's even living.

Smith: Well, because he was very --- we thought he was --- but he may have been a very brilliant person and he was just peculiar, but he was very odd. You know, if a child notices that you're odd, then you really do act peculiar.

Jordan: In what ways?

Smith: Well, his mannerisms and the way he acted, I thought was funny. I don't know what he did. It was something. I know he had a tic. So that was a nervous mannerism and that was something that a child would notice.

Yeager: Yeah. But you don't have any idea whether he's living or dead.

Smith: No.

Yeager: Do you know where he was from?

Smith: No. I don't have any idea where any of them were from.

Yeager: We had a conflict on him because it said that he was from Chicago.

Smith: I don't think he was.

Yeager: He was originally from the South?

Smith: I think so. You know, at one time it was considered to be --- you just wouldn't say that you were from the South. You'd say you were from some big city rather than say that you were originally from the South. And if you talk to many Negroes now, even though they are from the South, they don't say they're from the South. They say they're from some big city.

Yeager: You talked about a scholarship that you got from the Ladies' Educational Society.

Smith: Yes. That paid for my graduation. And I was to pay it back. And which I did at twenty-five dollars a month. I made seventy-five. I paid the Ladies' Aid twenty-five dollars every month, or whatever, the Ladies' Society.

Yeager: How was that scholarship arranged?

Smith: You applied for it. And they knew that I couldn't graduate unless I had the money. And they gave it to me.

Jordan: What were the expenses? Diploma? Cap and gown?

Smith: For the cap and gown and your sheepskin. I think it was $125.00 and that was a lot of money back in those days.

Wieman: That was a semester's tuition too in those days.

Smith: Yes, so you see that was a lot of money. And that was the nicest piece of paper I ever received when they sent that back to me that it was paid.

Yeager: Is Hilda C,odfrey living?

Smith: Yes she is. She lives in Ottumwa. And her name is Hilda Wilson. You know, she worked at the college. In the college library.

Yeager: And that's whom you visited in the library when you were young?

Smith: Oh, yes. I visited her every ev.ening after we'd walk home together because she lived on Spring Street and I lived on. First Ave. She lived one block south of the light and I lived one block west of the light.

Yeager: The housing wasn't segregated in any way here in Grinnell, was it?

Smith: No.

Yeager: It wasn't at all.

Smith: Well, now that I don't know. Oscar and Addie, they bought a house on ---

Wieman: Tenth Avenue and Summer Street. And the Lucases lived first on north West.

Smith: Yes. And the reason they moved from north West to 511 Second Avenue was because Momma bought the house at 411 First Avenue. You see the house at 511 had been given to Mother by Mumford. My mother had taken care of Mumford. Mumford was an old drayer and he told her that if she would take care of him until he died, she could have the house.

Yeager: In the tape it seemed that there were quite a few people who lived in like a --- on the same street, next to each other.

Smith: Well, that was because the three sisters lived within three blocks.

Yeager: That was just coincidence?

Smith: That was just coincidence. I think the man's name was who wanted Mother to have the house at 411 and so he was instrumental in seeing that she got that house. Because 511 was much smaller and with six children it wasn't big enough.

Wieman: Going back to housing, the Tibbses lived over on Elm Street and where did Mrs. Redrick live?

Smith: Redrick lived on Center Street right by the railroad tracks.

Wieman: Oh, yeah. Kind of in the neighborhood. Closer to your neighborhood, but not really in it.

Smith: Not really.

Wieman: I'm trying to think of where some of the other people lived.

Smith: Mrs. Jones lived way down by where Harley Harrington lived, on Broad Street, way south, down by the dump.

Yeager: Who was Mrs. Jones?

Smith: She was just a Negro who lived here.

Yeager: You don't know anything about her?

Smith: I don't know one thing. I don't even know where she worked. I know she must have maybe she didn't work. I don't know, but I know she lived by the ---

Yeager: She wasn't related to anyone?

Smith: No. She lived down by the dump. That's where the city dump used to be down there. I don't even know where it was because we weren't allowed to go that way.

Wieman: She musn't have been the kind of person you would associate with.

Smith: Well Paul and I always said she was a witch.

Wieman: She's the one you called the witch.

Smith: Yeah. And of course we were always scared of Mrs. Redrick's daughter-in-law because she always tied a rag on her heA(' and went down the railroad tracks. You know how kids are.

Yeager: It seems like you mentioned that the Redricks were related to the Tibbs.

Smith: They are. Mayme Redrick became Mavme Tibbs. So that was her daughter. And there was an Edith Redrick, a Robert Redrick, a Mayme Redricls".. Robert Redrick lived right next to the railroad track and his mother lived in the next house. Mother had known Mrs. Redrick before because her name was Miss Brown.

Yeager: Whose name was Miss Brown?

Smith: Redrick. Mrs. Redrick.

Yeager: Before she was married?

Smith: Yes. Mrs. Redrick. That was the mother of Mayme and Bob and Edith.

Yeager: Now your family had little contact with the Redricks?

Smith: Very little. Mother was very conscious of social strata and she said that she heard that Mrs. Redrick tied her children up by their thumbs and whipped them so that put them ---

Jordan: On a lower level.

Smith: Yes. So she said she wouldn't have anything to do with any of them. And then she always kept all of ber blinds closed.

Yeager: She wasn't very friendly then or ---

Smith: It wasn't that but she was just peculiar and if you ever asked her a question, she'd say,"Oh, over on River to River Road."So, if anybody ever said anything about, tell us about,"Oh, over on River to River Road."That's if you don't want them to know."Over on River to River Road."

Wieman: That's Highway 6, River to River Road.

Yeager: Were there a lot --- I was told by someone that when the highways were being built When were the highways built in Grinnell? Do you have any idea?

Smith: Well, they had a lot of paving men who came here. And then Mr. Spencer put in the concrete sidewalks in Grinnell. He was a Negro. And you'll see his name down.

Wieman: Yeah, that's right.

Yeager: Who was Mr. Spencer?

Wieman: He was sent here to do that job?

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: He lived here in Grinnell?

Smith: No. He came in to put in the sidewalks. I don't know how many --- a lot of sidewalks. And if you look down you see the little

Wieman: Inscription.

Yeager: What year was this in?

Smith: Oh, well, it was before I was born. I wouldn't know. Well, it might not have been before I was born

Wieman: Well, the sidewalks were probably put in in the late 1890's or early 1900' s. I can remember a few wo0.d-planked roads and I can remember when the streets were paved.

Smith: And then they had the paving gangs that came in.

Wieman: Were they black?

Smith: Yes . · And they stayed with Aunt P,nn Le.

Wieman: They did?

Smith: Yes.

Yeager: Aunt Annie ?

Smith: Good .. , Brown.

Yeager: She was the

Smith: She was the transformation lady.

Yeager: Frank Field you mentioned on the tape.

Smith: That was one of Aunt Annie's husbands.

Yeager: Oh. O.K.

Smith: The one that's in jail. That was in jail.

Yeager: And you called him the bum, didn't you?

Wieman: Aunt Annie had a colorful life, didn't she?

Smith: Oh, didn't she? I'll tell you.

Yeager: Anything about the Tibbs family? Do you have contact with that family?

Smith: No. I went to Marshalltown Sunday and visited a friend there and she said that one of the Tibbs girls, Roberta, lives there and she had four children.

Yeager: That's in Montezuma?

Jordan: Marshalltown.

Smith: There's nobody in Montezuma.

Wieman: Did you know the people at Morrow Chapel in Marshalltown?

Smith: The only people I know --- Anna May was married to Harry Gilmore and he was from Marshalltown. And this Mr. and Mrs. Johnson that we go to visit in Marshalltown were very good friends of the Gilmores. And so that's the only reason I know them.

Yeager: Can you tell me something about the Kiners?

Smith: The Kiners are --- Lena Lucas is Mrs. Kiner's half-sister. Lena Lucas' mother was Clara Lucas and then she was Clara Western. When she became Clara Western, she had Alma Western. And Alma Western became Alma Kiner. Now, Lena Lucas had a quarter of the section.

Yeager: Was she John Lucas'

Smith: Niece.

Yeager: Niece. O.K.

Smith: She was Theodore Lucas' daughter. And, see, she's the one --That's the last piece of property that belonged to Henry Lucas. Now that piece of property has gone to her son, Theodore Benning. She died in September at ninety-four.

Yeager: Oh.

Smith: So Alma is her half-sister. So that's what see, from the Lucases --- John Lucas was Lena's uncle and that was my uncle too.

Yeager: Oh, I see. And so you go down there every so often and visit.

Smith: Well, see, if we didn't go there to visit, we'd stay in a motel because I still have a house here. And so, we have to come to see about it.

Yeager: Do you have any plans of ever settling back in Grinnell.

Smith: No, not yet. But you never know. My daughter told me the other day, she said,"Well, Daddy has to go out there to see about the house so much, you ought to move in that house and let me move in your house."

Yeager: Has Grinnell changed a lot since you ---

Smith: Oh, I should say. It's so much bigger.

Wieman: Gosh, yes. It was two miles square when you were growing up.

Wieman: Those panQramic view pictures.

Smith: I don't understand how they got that picture because you know how old man Child used to take those pictures. He never seemed to take more than one picture.

Wieman: I know. I don't know how he did it. Whether it was just a big wide-angle lens or what but it wasn't distorted.

Smith: No. And now if they take a wide-angle ---

Wieman: Eor instance,· over iri the museum are these pictures of all the work crews at those plants, and he took those pictures I suppose. Ldon'.t know how he did it.

Smith: I don't either. I think it's most amazing. And, of course, his son died too, didn't he?

Wieman: Yes, I think he did.

Jordan: Are you finished?

Yeager: Yes, I'm finished.

Jordan: All right.