The Black Experience at Grinnell College Through Collected Oral History and Documents, 1863–1954

Stuart Yeager: What I've been starting dealing with with most of the individuals I've interviewed is reading you and reminding you of the events that took place as you came into Grinnell‚ some of the national events that might have affected your life in some way and also it might help you remember how times were because times have changed since 1958. In 1958 the median family income for whites was $5‚300.‚ for none-whites‚ $2‚700. Negro unemployment was at 14.4%‚ the highest in the past eleven years. I don't know if you might have been aware‚ or if it might have had something to do with your life. Resistance to southern voter registration was going on. KKK activity was on the rise. Martin Luther King was stabbed in the chest in Harlem. 1959: Voter registration drives and resistance. Sit-in campaigns were getting off the ground. They'd been in progress a couple of years maybe. Migrations were still taking place from the south. Black families were moving to north-eastern and central industrial cities. Martin Luther King was just beginning with Southern Christian Leadership Conference. I wanted to start out by asking you some questions about your family background‚ specifically your parents' occupations; their educational background; your home town and its make-up; the nature of your high school; your religious affiliation; and your parents' political affiliation.

James Simmons: My father was killed in World War II‚ so I was basically raised by my mother who was a school teacher in the Chicago public school system and my maternal grandmother basically. Those were the two people who raised me. At the time my mother had a B.A. in education. She subsequently went on and got a master's degree in education. As long as I can remember‚ she always placed a value on education. There was never any doubt in my mind that I was going on to college. That was just a foregone conclusion. In terms of my high school‚ I went to a private high school‚ Francis Parker in Chicago‚ having come from an all black elementary school situation‚ and went really five years to Francis Parker which was an elementary and high school. When I graduated from elementary school‚ I had a double promotion‚ so when I went to Parker they put me back to my regular grade. So that was kind of an interesting and traumatic experience for me‚ having gone from an all black elementary school where I was basically the valedictorian of the class to a predominantly all white‚ rather sophisticated school who decided that I needed to go back to my regular grade which as it turned out was really O.K. I was baptized in the Congregational Church‚ having been basically raised in the Christian Scientist Church. I'm not really very active religiously. My mother's political -- I assume she was a Democrat basically. She never talked much about that.

Yeager: What were your feelings -- your father had died in World War II‚ yet we're reading this kind of stuff‚ violence in the south. Extreme blatant racism all over the country -- how did you feel? Did you feel that there was kind of a contradiction between the two?

Simmons: I don't think at that time. I think that came probably later in my life. I was only about four or five years old when my father went off to World War II and I really don't remember associating much of the civil rights movement with the fact that my father gave his life for the country where he'd have to sit in the back of a train. I think the only real experience I had with Jim Crow was when I went south one time and at St. Louis I had to change cars.

Yeager: Was this on the way to school?

Simmons: No‚ I was just visiting some relatives down there. I was rather young then. I was eight or nine or ten. I totally didn't understand. Chicago of course had its racist things‚ but they were much more subtle. And getting on the back of the bus when I was down there; sitting in the balcony of the show; all just seemed very strange to me. Like I said‚ it really wasn't until later that I really began to resent the fact that I'd lost a father who was allegedly fighting for freedom‚ and there was no freedom unless you happened to be white.

Yeager: Do you know much about his background?

Simmons: Yes. Some. He was a mechanic. I think a high school graduate. I don't know much about his political or religious beliefs.

Yeager: Do you know whether he was in an integrated army --

Simmons: No. I think he was in an all black unit. I'm almost sure of that because I don't think -- it wasn't until Truman was elected that they integrated the service‚ and I'm sure he was in an all black unit. He was in the Italian fighting which was one of the tougher campaigns of the war. It was a segregated unit I'm sure.

Yeager: Moving on to Grinnell‚ how did you choose Grinnell? What were your friends' reactions? Your mother's reaction to your choosing Grinnell‚ coming from Chicago? And were you actually recruited?

Simmons: I really wasn't recruited. I found out about Grinnell because I had a number of friends who went here. Donald Stewart was a very good friend of mine and Herbie Hancock. There were a number of Chicagoans whom I grew up with who ended up at Grinnell. And I was looking for a small liberal arts college where I could play three sports. I knew that I had an opportunity to play a sport at a big time school‚ but I didn't want to do that. I wanted to come to a place where it was small‚ informal‚ personal and where I could have the opportunity to play sports and not worry about breaking my leg and losing my scholarship or whatever. My interest really came as a result of friends who were actually here. And I visited probably five or six colleges‚ most of which were small liberal arts with the exception of the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. And when I came to Grinnell I felt comfortable. It was one of the places where I felt comfortable‚ about the only place where I really felt comfortable‚ part of it because I knew some of the people here.

Yeager: Who did you know here when you came? Did you know Jim Lowry?

Simmons: He and I went to grammar school and high school together‚ so he and I both visited pretty much the same colleges‚ and we kind of made a decision together to come here so I knew he was coming. And as it turned out we also found out that another friend of ours‚ Allison Davis‚ who was our roommate for three years‚ was also coming.

Yeager: You all three were roommates.

Simmons: Yes‚ we all three were roommates. We didn't know that he was coming until we got here‚ but‚ like I say‚ it was some of the preparation had already been made in that some of the people we knew were here and it made the transition that much easier. And I have to say‚ as I think about it‚ the idea of coming to a predominantly white college really didn't enter our minds because we had been exposed -- having been five years at a predominantly white high school pretty well prepared us for whatever was going to happen here.

Yeager: I'm going to get to your activities in athletics because I'm very interested to hear your response about the reactions you were getting being black on all white teams. Was that a problem? Or had you been playing in athletics with whites in the past?

Simmons: Yes. In high school most of the teams that we were involved with were predominantly white. And usually it was Jimmy and I and one or two other players -- we were the only ones on the team. We did have some incidents‚ because the conference we played in included some suburban private schools who really weren't ready to deal with blacks. We got called “niggers“ and this and that‚ but after awhile you learn how to cope with that. That's the best you can do. That's your best shot. Save your time.

Yeager: What were your goals when you came to Grinnell? What was your outlook on the future at that time?

Simmons: Well‚ at that time‚ my mother‚ who happens to be a very organized‚ somewhat compulsive‚ kind of person‚ had had me tested‚ vocational testing or college prep testing‚ to see what areas I should go into and they basically said I should go into dentistry. Well‚ I was interested in aeronautical engineering‚ because I always liked airplanes and since I couldn't be a pilot because of my eyesight‚ I figured‚ well‚ I'll do the next best thing‚ I'll just design airplanes. So the I came to Grinnell really with the idea of getting into engineering and ending up an aeronautical engineer. Well‚ after I got here and spent the first two years at Grinnell buried in the science building and getting killed with physics‚ chemistry‚ differential equations‚ all that kind of stuff‚ I said‚ “Well‚ I'd better get out of here while I've still got some life left.“ So I subsequently transferred over into sociology. I didn't know where else to go and that seemed to be -- just stumbled into it more than anything else‚ soc and anthropology. That's what I ended up majoring in and when I got out of school I didn't know what the hell I was going to do with that major. So the objective was to get out of school and then worry about what you're going to do later.

Yeager: Since you lived in Chicago‚ was it a hard adjustment for you coming to an all rural setting?

Simmons: Not really‚ because my life at the time really centered around the sports involvement and what eased the transition was that I knew people. At that time there were maybe thirteen or fourteen blacks and probably eight to ten of them we knew‚ we grew up with‚ so that made it easier that way. Then some of the white students from Francis Parker also came here. So we had probably three or four white students from Francis Parker that we had gone to school with for five years who were also here. So it wasn't like it was exactly a strange place. So that made it much easier. The fact that we were three hundred miles from home -- the train ran through here -- I had girl friends in Chicago who would come out here on the train -- we'd drive into Chicago periodically -- so it wasn't that big a deal. So the transition wasn't really that tough.

Yeager: You say there were fourteen black students at Grinnell?

Simmons: Somewhere around there.

Yeager: What kind of interaction did you have between these black students? It wasn't organized was it?

Simmons: No. There was no Concerned Black Students or anything like that. Most of the black students who were here at the time were old friends. There were some that we didn't know until we got here‚ and at that point‚ at that time at least‚ there really wasn't -- the civil rights movement had just started -- there wasn't the heavy pressure of black consciousness and getting your head together‚ some of those kind of cliche kind of things. There wasn't a lot of that going on at the time. So basically the black students related as individuals. I think for the girls it was tougher‚ particularly socially‚ because --

Yeager: Claramarie Cannon was telling me that the black males dated white women but the black females didn't date white males.

Simmons: That's right. And I know because a couple of black girls who were here at the time were very close friends of mine‚ and it was tough on them socially. It really was. I feel somewhat guilty about that. But for the black male‚ it was probably an easier transition. I know socially it was. I know some of the girls left after a year or two. If I had a daughter‚ which I don't‚ I don't know if I'd send her to Grinnell‚ because of the social thing‚ the difficulty in dating. I don't think it's changed all that much. I don't know how much interracial dating goes on here with black women and white guys. Black guys and white girls‚ that's always been the case‚ but the other is not a very common kind of thing. So there wasn't -- the interaction among the blacks was very relaxed and there wasn't a lot of pressure one way or the other.

Yeager: Did you get together very often?

Simmons: Yeah.

Yeager: The fourteen? I guess not all at once.

Simmons: Not too much. Much of the activities centered around the halls. There was a much more sense of -- the halls took the place of fraternities and sororities‚ so a lot of the activity that happened was intra-hall‚ what was going on within the hall. And the other interaction that we had was basically the blacks who were in sports. Most of them were; at least many of them were. There were some who weren't. So‚ we'd play basketball‚ football together; there was that kind of thing.

Yeager: Did you have these other two students with you your whole four years?

Simmons: Well‚ my senior year‚ I was the president of the hall so at that time we had a suite or something. The president of the hall had a suite‚ so I didn't have them as roommates‚ but I had them for three years. We were together for three years.

Yeager: Maybe this will touch you a little bit more than the death of your father. Blacks were achieving‚ in those years especially‚ tremendous national attention in sports‚ gold medalist in Rome and a lot of other things like that‚ and yet you still see this blatant racism. Did that affect you?

Simmons: No. It didn't get too -- for whatever reason‚ I don't remember really being caught up that much in the racism. We had some incidents here in the town with some of the townies. Some of the athletic trips -- I always wondered why we couldn't spend the night in Appleton‚ Wisconsin. We'd play Lawrence College and we never spent the night there. And it wasn't until I left school and I asked John Pfitsch. I said‚ “How come we never spent the night in Appleton‚ Wisconsin?“ He said that there was a city ordinance where blacks could not stay in the motels over there‚ something like that. I was shocked. I didn't know. What? But I can't really say that I was really that aware of or sensitive to the issue of racism. Not really.

Yeager: How did white students in general react to black students? Had they had prior experience with black students?

Simmons: They seemed to. Even the students who were Iowans‚ who came from towns like Boone and Sibley and all that kind of business‚ reacted very positively‚ at least to me‚ partly because a lot of them were in sports. And there's a commonality that transcends skin color when you're competing together against some other team. You don't look and say‚ “Oh he's black who made that tackle.“ If you're a good player‚ then you're a good player. And I think probably the fact that I was so involved in sports‚ that was such a part of my life here‚ helped in a lot of ways‚ one in terms of recognition‚ in terms of my own self-esteem‚ because I did well in sports‚ and it's really in sports activity you develop some relationships that I think are unique. I don't know of another kind of experience where you develop the kind of relationships that you do. So we had -- I had no problem.

Yeager: Did you ever have white students coming up to you asking what it was like to be a black person? Were people curious?

Simmons: Yeah. They were curious. They didn't exactly phrase it that way. They would say things like‚ “You know I never think of you as black.“ Well then black wasn't -- Negro or whatever‚ colored or whatever they were using back then. But a lot of them were very curious. My roommate‚ Jimmy‚ used to wear a stocking cap. Well there were a lot of white students who never saw a stocking cap. What the hell is that? What do you do with that thing? And a lot of them were very curious about what it's like to live in a big city. We'd talk about the south side of Chicago where we grew up. “What's it like?“ They just were very curious about the cultural upbringing that we went through. We ended up taking some home with us and vice versa.

Yeager: Black students or white students?

Simmons: We took white students home. They spent weekends with us in Chicago. We'd take them around to different places. And they'd take us to parts of Des Moines‚ mostly Des Moines. I don't remember going to any other small Iowa towns. So there was a cross-fertilization there.

Yeager: What kind of an experience was that for you‚ going to some of the small towns? I guess Des Moines wasn't a small town.

Simmons: Des Moines really wasn't a small town. I was used to small towns because my grandmother lived in a small town in Michigan‚ Three Rivers‚ Michigan‚ which was predominantly white. I'd spent a lot of time there since I was two years old. In the summers‚ I'd be going up there with her. She lived on a farm. And we'd go into the town often and stuff. For a while she lived in the city though. So small towns didn't really throw me‚ although I'm a big city boy basically. Still I could adapt to a small town environment. So that helped me too here at Grinnell. So it wasn't a total cultural shock.

Yeager: I've asked you a little bit about social interaction which took place between black students and white. Were there any clubs on campus that were considered restricted or that black students shied away from?

Simmons: Not that I remember. One of the other things that was attractive to me at Grinnell was that there were no fraternities or sororities because I really didn't want to play that game and go through those kind of changes -- although there was hazing and stuff but it was different‚ but as far as clubs and stuff‚ I don't remember if there'd be any that we thought if we were interested we couldn't participate in or felt funny about participating in. There was a fairly open atmosphere as I remember‚ as I recall. We had a good time‚ and we were relaxed.

Yeager: Were you aware of the activities going on outside of Grinnell such as some of the early civil rights movement in the south?

Simmons: Yeah. I was aware of some of that.

Yeager: Grinnell has been called insulated by some of those I talked to earlier. But you were aware of what was going on outside Grinnell?

Simmons: I think that's true. You were aware of what was going on‚ but you didn't feel it touching us necessarily. I know in other schools a number of them mobilized to join in the marches and that kind of thing‚ but black students here at that point really weren't into that. I don't know if they -- at some later point I'm sure they were. But we weren't so much into that. We felt no particular pressure or tension. The tension was the academic pressure. To some extent I guess we probably were a little insulated‚ perhaps protected. I think the administration was sensitive‚ was‚ quote‚ liberal. Howard Bowen was president then‚ and I always thought he was a good guy‚ a good man.

Yeager: Was there financial aid offered the black students at that time?

Simmons: Oh‚ yeah. I think most of us were on financial aid one way or another. I had a survivor's grant from the government because of my father's death‚ so I had a free ride basically. I had no financial problems at all. It was a good deal.

Yeager: It all depends on what you --

Simmons: Yeah. I guess I earned it.

Yeager: You gave up your father for the money.

Simmons: That's right.

Yeager: You did not feel then any obligation or political -- an obligation to participate politically because of some of the things that were going on around you. You didn't feel that there was a need to do that.

Simmons: No. I didn't feel any kind of pressure that way. You know when you recall that stuff‚ I was kind of surprised. I said‚ “Was that going on back then? I thought that was later on‚ further down the road.“

Yeager: It didn't receive that kind of television and media publicity until a little bit later on. Is that probably why you -- radio I guess covered it --

Simmons: We never listened to radio much except for some music. I didn't read the papers all that much. And television‚ like you say‚ wasn't covering that kind of stuff at the level that it subsequently covered it‚ so that may have contributed to the insulated or isolated sense that people had.

Yeager: Were you involved in any black organizations or bi-racial organizations? NAACP? National Urban League?

Simmons: No‚ I don't think so‚ not at that time. No‚ I wasn't.

Yeager: There were no activities going on on campus then in reaction to civil rights that you were aware of by white students or blacks.

Simmons: No. Not that I'm aware of. I can't remember any.

Yeager: Were you involved in any activities relating to international students?

Simmons: No.

Yeager: What was the college's administration's policy towards housing black students? Did they require you or encourage you to live with other black students? Did they discourage you from living with black students?

Simmons: I don't think -- I wasn't aware of any policy. It just so happened that -- I think -- well‚ I knew Jimmy Lowry and I requested to be together and our roommate‚ I'm not sure the college knew he was black. If you looked at him‚ he was blond and blue-eyed. You wouldn't know. We used to call him “Pinkums.“

Yeager: An albino?

Simmons: No. He was just very light‚ just very fair and you would not know.

Yeager: What was his name?

Simmons: Allison Davis. His father's a professor at the University of Chicago and his mother was a high yellow woman from Detroit from a wealthy‚ well-to-do family. I don't remember how he got -- I don't remember if he requested that or whether we switched around at some point because we knew -- He may have been with somebody else and we said‚ “Oh‚ we know you. Come on with us.“ But as far as I know the policy was you could room with whomever you wanted to. I don't know what they did about assigning that stuff‚ but my hunch is that it was just a very open thing where they neither encouraged or discouraged blacks from living together.

Yeager: As roommates‚ did you ever discuss -- well I don't want to say discuss being black -- you had a commonality that other students did not have. Were you not conscious of the fact that you were black in an all white institution?

Simmons: Oh‚ I think there were times when we were. There were times when all -- you know‚ around the stocking cap incident -- where a white student might walk in and say‚ “What's that on your head? I've never seen a thing like that. What is it?“ And you'd go through what a stocking cap was and this and that. Or we may be having a bull session‚ talking about the south side of Chicago or whatever‚ getting into stuff about that‚ but I don't remember really -- I remember discussing with a white student‚ a friend of mine. He was very curious about blacks. He was from Boone‚ Iowa‚ and he'd never been around any blacks. He was just very curious‚ kind of fascinated. And so he and I used to have some discussions about being black and that kind of thing.

Yeager: What kinds of things was he interested in knowing?

Simmons: I think basically he was interested in what are the differences and what are the similarities. What's it like being black and growing up in Chicago? What kind of things did you have to cope with that I didn't? Or vice versa.

Yeager: Were there major differences though? In the interview you seem to have stressed that there really weren't that many but were there? Did you tell him that there were?

Simmons: No‚ I think there were probably more similarities than differences. It may or may not have had to do with being black. It may have had more to do with living in an urban situation and living in a rural one. I really can't remember what the differences were other than the obvious physical kinds of things and standing out in a crowd sometimes. But other than that I really don't remember.

Yeager: Can you name the most positive experience you had at Grinnell and the most negative.

Simmons: Probably the most positive would be my athletic involvement. That's probably the most satisfying to me.

Yeager: You have an incredible list of accomplishments here in athletics: Honor G; Benz Award recipient in basketball; I think you were the high hitter in baseball. Was that you or was it -- I think it was Lowry.

Simmons: It was Lowry.

Yeager: You were basketball‚ track and football.

Simmons: Yeah. I played baseball my freshman year. Yes‚ that probably was the most satisfying‚ personally‚ experience here at Grinnell. The other thing that I enjoyed too was the -- I enjoyed being in Smith Hall. That was a very enjoyable experience‚ because it was the jock hall at the time. It also‚ I think‚ had the highest grade point average of any of the halls at that time‚ so it was kind of unique and the guys were very much down to earth and just regular guys which made it very easy. Probably the negative thing was‚ probably my first two years when I was really into something where I shouldn't have been in‚ the engineering and the academic part of that. And I think that what would have been helpful to me is to have had some counseling around -- some realistic counseling around: Let's take a look at what your interests are‚ what your abilities are‚ where your strengths are. And someone could have counseled me out of that. But I was so hard-headed which really affected my whole grade point average because my first two years I think I had about 2. and in my second two years I had about 3. or better. It was just a matter of being in some areas that I could handle a lot better.

Yeager: Then you were busy --

Simmons: Yes. When you're in three sports -- but I think that that probably helped me learn how to deal with my time better. I'm sure that if I hadn't been in sports it would have been a much more difficult kind of situation for me. But probably the academics and the lack of counseling was the most negative thing.

Yeager: Who had the greatest personal influence on your life at Grinnell‚ student‚ faculty member?

Simmons: Well‚ let's see. I think my coaches all had a -- John Pfitsch. He's always had an influence on my life in a positive way. I'm still very close to him now. And some of the other coaches. Professors‚ let's see. Ralph Luebben.

Yeager: He's still here.

Simmons: Yeah‚ he's still here. He came back. He was my anthropology instructor. I kind of enjoyed Ralph. And I always kind of respected Howard Bowen even though he was more distant. He was like a role model‚ the president of the college. He was very nice. In fact my senior year when I was captain of the football team‚ he arranged it so that the other captain and I elected the next football coach basically which was a very considerate thing. But those probably are the people who had the most influence on me while I was here.

Yeager: Who was your idol in the '50's when you were going to school? Did you have an idol?

Simmons: Well‚ I liked Jackie Robinson or somebody like that‚ Willie Mays.

Yeager: No one who really stuck out then?

Simmons: Not really. I can't think of anyone who just leaps out at me. No.

Yeager: When you got out of school what did you do?

Simmons: Well‚ my first year out of school with my sociology major I was having a tough time finding a job. So I got work in the post office for a short period of time and decided to go back to grad school and get a master's degree in social work. Shortly thereafter I worked for a year in a community center in Hyde Park in Chicago‚ working with street gangs and upon my year there‚ I was admitted to the University of Chicago's School of Social Service Administration and finished up my degree there in '64. I started in '62‚ a two-year degree‚ and it was '64 when I finished up. And following that I've been in the practice of social work‚ subsequently in administration‚ operating a social work agency in the state of Illinois and we also do some things in St. Louis‚ Missouri.

Yeager: Is this private or - - -

Simmons: Private. A private organization called the Volunteers of America which is a national organization‚ and I have the responsibility for the state of Illinois. We work with kids. That has always been my interest‚ working with kids. That's what I've been doing.

Yeager: Are you married? Do you have children?

Simmons: I'm married. I got married right out of school. And I have two boys. I stayed married fifteen years. Then was single for two or three years and subsequently remarried. I remarried in '77‚ so with my second wife‚ no children. No plans for children. Two's enough.

Yeager: Did she have any children from --

Simmons: No. She'd never been married before. So we'll have no children.

Yeager: And your children are what ages now?

Simmons: Seventeen and fifteen. Two boys.

Yeager: So one of them will be going to college in a year. Are you encouraging him to go to Grinnell or leaving it up to him?

Simmons: Well. My older boy has had a learning disability‚ and we're trying to determine whether he's college material. At least at this point he's not Grinnell College material. He'll probably go to junior college. We'll see what happens; see how it works out. My younger son‚ I think‚ will be a pretty good student. They both have been up here many times. I don't know what he'll do‚ and I'm not pushing him one way or another. I had an interesting experience that I just happened to think about. When I got out of Grinnell and applied to the University of Chicago‚ because of my grade point average‚ there was some question about whether they were going to accept me or not. They only take --- you have to be a B or hopefully an A student in order to get into the University of Chicago. So they made me take a graduate entry examination‚ which really pissed me off and had me very concerned about it --- so by requesting that I take this exam they were questioning my grade point average‚ basically questioning my intelligence. I was uptight about whether I could really hack it here at the University of Chicago. Well‚ as it turned out there was no problem at all. The one thing that I say and say all the time is that Grinnell prepares you for graduate work. And everyone I talk to who ever went on to graduate school really felt that they were very well prepared in terms of being able to think and write‚ particularly write. Unfortunately in my position I see many who hold advanced degrees who can't think or write. If you got through Grinnell you knew how to write; unless you really just scraped through. But I felt really good about the preparation I got at Grinnell.

Yeager: Did you know any black families in Grinnell when you were here?

Simmons: I don't think there were any. Somebody told me that there was a farmer who lived on the outskirts when we were here. I never saw any. So as far as I know there were no black families. I could be wrong.

Yeager: Thank you very much.