The Black Experience at Grinnell College Through Collected Oral History and Documents, 1863–1954

Jon Gray: I consider Kansas City‚ Missouri‚ my hometown‚ but...

Stuart Yeager: Was this when you were going to school?

Gray: Yes‚ and now and before I came to school. I was born when my father was pastor in a church in Little Rock‚ Arkansas. At a very young age.

Yeager: What year?

Gray: What year was I born? 1951.

Yeager: So I guess you were there with the Little Rock incident that went on.

Gray: Oh‚ I suppose I was there.

Yeager: You were very young?

Gray: I was kind busy doing some things‚ don't really remember. So‚ when I was about nine months old‚ my mother tells me‚ they moved‚ I guess we moved to Kansas City‚ Missouri. And that must of been in the summer of '52. So‚ Kansas City‚ Missouri‚ is the first place that I remember living 'cause I was a kid and my brother and sister obviously were kids‚ just like me. In '57 we moved to East St. Louis‚ Illinois and lived for a four-year period till '61. In 1961 my father was moved‚ being a minister he has a commitment to being what they call an itinerant minister‚ so when ever the bishop appoints you‚ you go‚ and that was his attitude. At any rate‚ we were in Kansas City‚ Kansas‚ for a three year period and then moved to Kansas City‚ Missouri. In 1973‚ the spring when I graduated my father was appointed again to another job and that required him to move to a small rural community very similar to Grinnell. I guess if you took away the college‚ Grinnell and Chillicothe‚ Missouri would be very much the same. Of course‚ by that time I had graduated‚ in the spring of that year‚ and I was starting law school in Kansas City and I didn't want to leave Kansas City so I saw no particular need to go anywhere‚ but at any rate‚ they lived in Chillicothe and of course were in and out of Kansas City area all the time up until '79 when he moved back to Kansas City and was assigned another church.

Yeager: Now‚ were you living in a black neighborhood‚ integrated neighborhood or a white neighborhood?

Gray: Black.

Yeager: Was your high school‚ where was your high school first of all and was it integrated?

Gray: My high school‚ I went to Paseo high school‚ spelled P-a-s-e-o‚ in Kansas City‚ Missouri and it was sorta the school in transition when I was there. There were a couple of schools in transition in Kansas City‚ and certainly Paseo was one of them. When I went there it was unusual‚ 'cause when I went there they had in addition to the normal high school grades they had the eighth and nine grades‚ also eighth‚ ninth‚ tenth‚ eleventh‚ and twelfth grades in the school. in Missouri at the time‚ I don't know if that's the case now‚ at the time eighth grade was considered your last year of elementary or grammar school. So we were all thrown in there with everybody else. But at any rate‚ it was about 70 percent black. So there was a great experience of transition that the neighborhood experienced‚ the community‚ the surrounding communities rather experienced. The most rapid developing case of white flight I'd ever seen. So by that time everybody had moved out except you know a few white families that were unable to move. And some of the people are still there as a matter of fact.

Yeager: Was it difficult for you to make the transition? Was it the same‚ were the people coming from lower background lower socio-economic backgrounds than yourself?

Gray: Black students?

Yeager: Or were these generally kids that came from upper crust families such as yourself?

Gray: Black students?

Yeager: Yes.

Gray: Oh‚ I didn't have any trouble with the transition. I don't think in retrospect. I'm not prepared to say they were from a lower socio-economic. I'm unwilling to say they were from a lower economic background because my mother was a public employee‚ as a teacher‚ and my father as a minister certainly was not compensated handsomely. So I'm unwilling to say they were from a lower economic background. I'm unwilling to say they were from a lower social background. I will say that they came from a very different social background because despite the fact that there was sorta a tacit‚ a tacit college preparatory program‚ most of the students who I went to high school with‚ who were with me by the time that I graduated‚ probably have not chosen to take advantage of college opportunities.

Yeager: Can you tell me how did you chose Grinnell? Oh wait‚ did I ask you what your parents' political affiliation was?

Gray: No.

Yeager: What is your parents' political affiliation?

Gray: I don't know.

Yeager: You have no idea?

Gray: I have no idea. My father claims to be a republican‚ whenever Republicans win. In terms of ever telling me who's he voted for‚ with possible exception of whenever he's trying to goad somebody into saying‚ “I told you so.“ I don't think he's ever revealed to my inquiry as to who he voted for‚ whether it's the president‚ school board or anything. My mother says she has no political affiliation but rather votes for a particular individual as to what he‚ or I suppose she may stand for‚ he or she may stand for. What they intend to do‚ what's wrong with whoever is in it. So they‚ I don't think they have any politically affiliation in particular.

Yeager: Can you tell me how did you choose Grinnell‚ and what were your friends'‚ parents' reaction to your choosing Grinnell?

Gray: Well‚ my parents' reaction was very positive. They were happy about my coming to Grinnell. The reason was because my sister was here at the time. And the reason I came here was Grinnell opened up the ballgame later. I had visions at the time that Yale University wanted to have me in their entering class and so I had not really but for the most part put all my application eggs in that basket. In December‚ January my sister talked to Paul Torno who was the admissions director then that‚ or I guess admissions counselor then‚ you want more black students so why don't you send my brother some stuff? So he sent me some stuff and I filled it out and sent it back. And low and behold they write me back and tell me it's okay if I came here. To show how okay it was they said‚ “We'll support you financially to this extent.“ Which was far above any other acceptances I got. Let me say parenthetically I did not get accepted at Yale so it turned out they did not want me in their entering class that year. And the other acceptances I did get‚ which were from a couple of schools‚ did not have with it the visible monetary support that Grinnell did‚ the support that they were offering me was just a minuscule fraction of the entire cost‚ which cost by the way‚ substantially lower than Grinnell but when you take a look at the overall cost as it relates to the amount of aid they were offering‚ the ration of percentage was much‚ much higher when you look at the Grinnell package.

Yeager: Okay‚ can you tell me as a student what were your primary concerns at Grinnell?

Gray: I don't remember. I was very concerned about being able to perform academically. I didn't want to be considered a remedial student or whatever it was. I was concerned about my socialization‚ both while I was here and what effect that would have on me after I left. On a personal side‚ I was very concerned about athletics‚ the way I participated in. I was quite concerned‚ I guess‚ about going back into the socialization point ... I was very concerned about the manner in which I related to black students here. I was concerned about the manner in which I related to white students. Somehow thinking that relating to one and relating to the other were mutually exclusive‚ which I found fairly early on‚ not to be the case. Now your question was‚ )how was I perceived by white students? And I suppose the only honest answer I can give you is I don't know. There were a number of white people that I lived next door to and did joint projects with in classes and I still communicate with; played football‚ ran track with‚ worked with‚ so I can only assume that I was perceived by whites as a kind of a nice guy or however you all perceive people. I can't remember having any problems. getting along with anyone‚ white or black.

Yeager: Did you have a roommate? If you did were they white or black?

Gray: I had a roommate my freshman year. He was a white guy from Cincinnati.

Yeager: Was it difficult to adjust to a white roommate?

Gray: No. We had sort of a‚ I don't remember what it was‚ sort of a tacit agreement that he went his way and I went my way. And even though we never sat donw and talked about it‚ it just kind of went that way. We didn't go to meals together‚ we didn't get up together. He was very quiet when he would get up in the morning and I'd be very quiet when I came in at night‚ as far as that's concerned. After that‚ I lived in single rooms so I never had‚ never wanted a roommate after that.

Yeager: Was it hard for you to adjust to a rural setting?

Gray: Oh‚ it was different. I won't say it was hard‚ I don't remember ever sitting up in a room or anywhere else for that matter bemoaning my fate in the middle of Iowa. That's not to say it was totally enjoyable all the time. And the fact that I was was in the middle of Iowa and it was not totally enjoyable does not necessarily mean that if I leave Iowa everything will be all right. If I'm in Kansas City‚ if I was in New York‚ if I was in Seattle or Guam‚ it doesn't necessarily mean everything is going to be all right. So I took the view as a relationship to being in the middle of white folks‚ in the middle of cornfields‚ in the middle of Iowa. That you got to be somewhere‚ and a lot of times people are swarming all about‚ talking about I don't like it here; I'm going to go to Oberlin. “Have you ever been to Oberlin?“ “No.“ “How do you know you'll like Oberlin?“ “t11ell‚ I don't know. Somebody said I'd like Oberlin.“ So I took the attitude that Grinnell College was a place to do a certain thing. That thing is to participate in educational process‚ go to my interview.) school‚ you're not on vacation. (You're ruining

Yeager: Is that your sister? At the time.

Gray: No‚ she's not. I had heard of Marilyn‚ I suppose this is just some extra goodies. I had heard of Marilyn‚ and my sister had talked about Marilyn‚ but this iFr the first time I'd ever met her. I mean this weekend is the first I'd ever met Marilyn. I've talked to her on the phone; related to some improving committee‚ but no‚ she's not my sister. She had a brother‚ I think‚ that went here also. He's not my brother. I'm sure he's a nice guy. Marilyn's nice‚ but she's not my sister.

Yeager: How many black students were at Grinnell?

Gray: I don't know. You've got the graph here. This looked about‚ I was here from the fall of 1969 to the spring of '73. I was here just before the peak year. So it looks like there were like 70-75‚ something like that.

Yeager: Can you tell me about the towns reaction to black students? I've heard a lot of varying stories.

Gray: Yes‚ so have I. I have no reason to doubt any of the horror stories‚ that have emerged. And in terms of the benign type of harassment‚ kids yelling out the window‚ yelling names out the window‚ I mean that stuff happened. And I understand that it's happened to us while we've been here this weekend‚ as far as that's concerned. Yes‚ it's nothing no one has heard in the past. It's a bit surprising to come back in 1981‚ particularity in September of 1981‚ which is‚ we're here now. It's a bit disturbing because I don't believe that car loads of people ride around Kansas City yelling things out like that. That happens but it's probably in a more confrontational area than other places‚ rather than just an‚ it's unsolicited‚ unprovoked‚ benign harassment. Now‚ your specific question was‚ when I was a student here how did the t'0wnspeople react? Everywhere I went here I was treat like a black person who comes in my establishment. People rush over to help you; I guess they think I'm going to take something. But after I got to be known to certain of the merchants‚ I feel I was treated very well. There are a couple of clothing stores here where for some reason or another‚ that chose to extend credit to me. A couple of the other merchants who don't deal in credit; like the grocery‚ Gibson's‚ which was where Pamida is‚ or whatever it is now‚ across from McNally's. They don't deal in credit. But they got to the point where they would recognize me when I came in and treated me all right. They watched you when you came into the store‚ far as that's concerned. Nobody ever told me to get out of the store or “We don't want you here.“ All of these incidents that we hear about happening‚ when I was here‚ last night and Friday; all of these for some reason have always happened to someone else. It's never happened to me. But I know it's there and I know it could happen to me. And the fact that it happens at all is disturbing. So‚ me personally‚ nobody ever bothered me. The townspeople gave me at least adequate service when I patronized their places of business‚ and things like that.

Yeager: What types of social interaction took place between black students and white students?

Gray: Oh well‚ there was a hell of a lot of dating. There was a lot of sexual interaction; particularly between black men and white women. This is probably a topic that's talked about in the closets or whatever.

Yeager: Not really. All the people I've talked to so far have been very...

Gray: Is that right? I'm surprised.

Yeager: Yeah. very open about it. All the way back from '50.

Gray: You know '58‚ '59. That was a different era than 1969-73‚ because in '68 you the Olympics; Tommy Smith and what's his name‚ Lee Evans‚ and Tommy Smith made their tacit statements. Black nationalism you know for all the world to see. You know we'd gone through the Watts riot of 1965‚ shoot-out in Cleveland‚ all that whole thing‚ so your talking about an era of what might be called separatism. It might be also called getting ourselves together or regrouping or whatever it is. So at that time‚ at that time in particularly in the eyes of the black women on campus who by and large did not cross the racial line pertaining to dating or sexual experience‚ it was an affront for someone to openly associate with ‚a white student. And there was a lot of that in some cases. It was open.

Yeager: Was there resentment within the C.B.S. organization‚ especially about the women?

Gray: Sure.

Yeager: Voice resentment?

Gray: Sure. I don't think it was any different. There was resentment voices when a black male student would be running around with two or three black female students. It‚ I suppose‚ territorial‚ for a lack of a better word‚ territorial dispute but that fact that you ran around on the other side of the fence‚ or on the side of town‚ on the other side of campus or whatever‚ with a white woman; it's even more of an affront. It's bad enough that you mess around with some black woman‚ you get what I'm saying. There were a lot of individual friendships that were formed. I suppose that you learn the difference between a person who's considered a conservative racist and a liberal racist. And that is because a conservative racist hates all black people but there's certain black individuals that they like‚ A liberal racist likes all black people but there are certain individuals that they don't like. There were a number of conservative and liberal racists. I would presume that the more outspoken and the more obstinate‚ the more critical a black person was of Grinnell students‚ Grinnell experience‚ whatever that is‚ the administration would evoke feelings in the liberal racists. “Well‚ he's an asshole‚ you know I don't like him‚ but I don't have anything against a black student.“ And I would suppose that the more affable and the more a person tried to move out to the mainstream and not readily be identified with C.B.S.‚ the more conservative racist would say‚ “Well‚ I want to go. We ain't got nothing over there‚ so we ain't going‚“ The reasons then were not particularly eloquent but there were reasons‚ whatever they were.

Yeager: You were going to say something about 1970. I was asking about civil rights.

Gray: Oh‚ yeah‚ in 1970. I think it was 1970‚ seems like it would of had to have been. This was before all that Jackson State‚ Kent Stadie thing came down‚ but at any rate‚ for Black Martyrs Weekend‚ there was a speaker who‚ that came here from Princeton. He was a psychologist.who talked about the psychological process that individuals go through as they come to the point of realizing they're black and coming to grips with whole phenomenon. And thereafter setting themselves about the business of doing something with their blackness--whatever that is-whether they paint a picture‚ or throw a football or sing a song‚ just do something that will contribute to the overall betterment of the black community; and that's a terribly over-used phrase “black com_rnunity'i but I can't think of anything else to .. ‚ There was‚ his whole philosophy was‚ there are certain stages that people go through and I can't remember them all now. But the first one was what they called the pre-experience stage and that is when the stress was upon maintaining my individuality; you know‚ don't lump me in a group‚ don't assume that I'm a member of C.B.S. I'm an individual who happens to be black. The second stage was the experience. It's when you have your experience whether it's somebody‚ some band of white foll-cs throwing pi~s on you or whether it's realizing some folks killed Martin Luther King because he was trying to make things better for everybody‚ or whether it was the '68 Olympics when say Tornmy Smith and Lee Evans kick all them people's butts and then rub it in the world's face. Whatever it was‚ the death of an uncle or grandfather‚ there was an experienDe that brought home the fact quite vivic1ly for some reason. Of course‚ it's a different experience in everybody‚ but it brings home the fact you are a black person‚ you are a black person‚ you for a special reason. And you ought to do something about it. Do something with it. Do something constructive because your black and your effort should be not to be better than someone else but to be better than yourself. So we have the pre-experience‚ and we have the experience stage‚ the occurrence stage.

Yeager: What was his name?

Gray: I can't remember his name. If someone called it I'd remember his name. He came here for Black Martyrs Weekend in the spring of '70‚ He was a professor‚ or associate professor or something at Princeton. And I believe he was a psychologist or sociologist. I can't remember. And it seems like his name was Williams. But he came with an English professor by the name of Findley Campbell who was at the time on the faculty of Wabash College in Indiana. At any rate‚ he talked about the third stage being the im_1nersion‚ _that is once you had your experience you would begin to to~ally immerse yourself in every T -13 meant was that we had a separate room draw. They blocked off some rooms. Generally some of the students were bitching you're blocking off all the single rooms. People wanted the same rooms all the time. But it wasn't the case. Also‚ they weren't all single. 'There was probably a proportionate number of singles in a cluster plan as throughout the general college community. It's just when you show a cluster in four halls rather than seventeen it looks like the number of single rooms has been percipidiously reduced‚ in the general population but which is not the case. There was a lots of animosity for that among the students; white students‚ but somehow the plan pressed ahead. My opinion is that it was probably a good thing. \rife‚ I know myself‚ identified a couple of people who were having problems. That's not to say they corrected their problems. At lest we identified the problem early enough so that they could correct the problem‚ rather than wait three or four weeks before the end of the semester. We identified it early on and that's the time to do something about it. That's not to say in all cases where it was discovered anything was done directly but there were some cases where it was done and I think the success of that is due in very large measure to the fact that there was a cluster system. And that there were people around who could kinda look out‚ kinda watch out to see if they were doing okay. And I don't believe I might be wrong‚ but I don't believe that it would have been available in any other system.

Yeager: Can you tell me what was the most positive experience you had at Grinnell? What was the most negative?

Gray: I think the single most negative was the seizure of the library. That was probably the single most negative.

Yeager: Why?

Gray: People can say what they want to say about Glenn Leggett‚ who was president at the time‚ but Glenn Leggett in his own private way was truly about the business of going about trying to do some things to improve the situation for black students‚ did not devote himself to that exclusively 'cause there was a bunch of folks‚ many of whom were paying the full toll who wanted things done so therefore when you went to him on Monday and wanted something done‚ he couldn't call you up on Tuesday and say that it's taken care of. He had to work through a lot of processes in order to get things done‚ and he wouldn't do it with a lot of fanfare. So acting our of frustration the group‚ a group decided to seize the library and it kinda snowballed and in terms of what Leggett was trying to do was just absolutely the worse time to do it. And nobody who organized the thing knew that. It's been a long time finding that out. He was trying to do some things and he had reached the point of frustration with waiting‚ roadblocks and all this sLuff‚ so in terms of what he was trying to do‚ it wasn't a very good boost for him‚ sorta a slap in the face to him. It was a justification for the trustees‚ the faculty or whoever it was to say‚ “See what they're doing.“ “Why do you want to do this for them‚“ But that is -15 probably the single most negative experience. The single most positive is probably when I graduated.

Yeager: Can you give a quick profile of what you've done since then? Where you've gone to school? Married‚ children?

Gray: Two weeks after I graduated from here‚ I entered University of Missouri Law School‚ at Kansas City. I went to law school for three years there. My last year I was elected as one of the two law students nationally as a member of the American Bar Associate House of delegate. They call it the law student of delegates and I was one of the two. That entitled me to do a lot of things‚ travel‚ do a lot of things related to the American Bar. And after that I graduated from law school and was admitted to the Bar in 1977. In 1978 I ran for public office in Jackson County‚ Missouri‚ Kansas City‚ the major portion of which is Kansas City. I lost that and continued to practice law. There's a body‚ a legislative body known a the County Legislature that is composed of fifteen members‚ eleven district members and four at-large members‚ and I was running for one of the at large positions. And I lost it very narrowly. I've been active in local Democratic politics. Right now I practice law‚ a sole practitioner representing a board of election coITw1issioners as the Democratic counselor. I am married. I got married last year. I got married late in life. I got married last year to another lawyer that I've known since I was four years old. She wasn't a lawyer then‚ but we have known each other since we were about four years old. And we don't have any children and the attitude at least right now is probably that we won't. But‚ most accidents happen at home‚ as they say.