The Black Experience at Grinnell College Through Collected Oral History and Documents, 1863–1954

Rebecca Conard French: And first prize. I don't know about him at all.

Stuart Yeager: James

French: Do you know about him? He was in the class of 1913.

Yeager: What class were you in?

French: 1930.

Yeager: You were 1930. O.K. He just passed away recently‚ three years ago.

French: Oh‚ well that's interesting. What was his career?

Yeager: He was the principal of an elementary school in Illinois. He had worked for a lot of ---He had worked for the YMCA for awhile and he'd gone into teaching. I have information on his background.

French: I don't know about him. I don't remember hearing about him. I was interested to see that.

Yeager: He was‚ I think‚ the second black graduate that I have on record.

French: Are these all the interviews you've made already?

Yeager: I didn't bring that. We're piled up this high with interview ing material. I want to get some basic information on yourself so I can get an idea of exactly when you were in contact with students at Grinnell and when you were here. Had you grown up here your whole life?

French: Yes. I was away at boarding school for three years. I graduated ati•J“c:isttavm School in Pennsylvania. I graduated there in 1926 and so I was kind of out of the high school stream of things at that time. Then I was here in college until 1930. And then I wasn't here again except to visit until we retired here in '75.

Yeager: So after you graduated you left Grinnell?

French: Yes.

Yeager: And how long did yourmother live?

French: She died in 1946.

Yeager: And she stayed in Grinnell?

French: Yes.

Yeager: I have some records that show that your ---this is the article that your mother had written that I have that you were a member of the Cosmopolitan Club. So was your sister.

French: Yes.

Yeager: And you ---It shows here that you were a member the year when three black students were attending Grinnell. And I was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit about the Cosmopolitan Club.

French: Not about those students?

Yeager: Well‚ eventually we' 11 get to them if you can remember 1. anything about them.

French: Oh‚ yes‚ I remember them all very well. Well‚ I think it was started ---It was a movement that was on a lot of campuses. And I think it really had to do with the days when there were a lot of Oriental students‚ a lot of Chinese students here. There were quite a group of them at one time and I suppose that would be about 1920 or so‚ Well‚ then they left and went to other campuses‚ I guess‚ where they had bette'l“' opportunities probably. So there would just be an occasional student from some other country but the Cosmopolitan Club continued. I could tell you who they were. There were not many of them from other countries. One would be Brucia Dadinsky. She was a professor from Russia. And RaymondTs'eng. I remember him. John Eisen was born in Germany and came over here. And then there was one student who was born in Italy. But they really didn't consider themselves to be from that country. They were automatically members if they wanted to be. It had kind of outlived its usefulness by the time I came along. It didn't have too much usefulness. But it had some. It was a social club for people who maybe otherwise wouldn't have one. Especially a Greek fellow‚ Stilianou was his name‚ that enjoyed it a great deal. And he graduated maybe '28 or sometime like that. And then for some reason or other the black students were also members and that didn't exactly fit. It was supposed to be other countries but it also included black students.

Yeager: Do you know why it included black students?

French: I guess it was just including people who were different. I don '.t know why else.

Yeager: Who was the faculty sponsor for that group? Did they have one?

French: I don't think there was especially‚ but there would always be somebody who would ---see the names in there ---of course Brucia Dadinsky ---but I don't remember having a sponsor particularly. Then there '‚s a Mr. Thornton who was a Canadian or had studied in Oxford or something. Martha Jones Oelke ought to be back soon from Florida and she was. -1. president one year so she would probably tell more about it.

Yeager: O.K. Gan you tell me why would you join Cosmopolitan Club?

French: Well‚ I think it was the place I felt at home. I suppose I would say I was different too. I wasn't ever ---we didn't have sororities here but they had kind of the equivalent of social classes and things like that and it would be rather unthinkable not to in my family I think. It was just the kind of thing that we thought was of interest.and value. And they were very interesting people in the club.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little ---you said your family ---can you give me just a little insight into some of the things that your mother and father --

French: Well‚ they were Quakers and Quakers believe in “that of God and every man“ is the way they put it and everybody has his own inner light. And so that really leads to belief in everybody having value‚ I'd say. And also my mother ---this was just my mother __ ..;. she was very much a person for the underdog.

Yeager: Do you recall her talking about either black students or town blacks that she had dealings with.

French: Well‚ I don't remember about these particular students. -Those two men‚ they came from other towns‚ and they were very active in whatever it was they were doing in college. I suppose you know about them don't you?

Yeager: Yes.

French: And Clifton Lamb has a son who is a psychiatrist in Palo Alto‚ California. There's a woman in town here whose son kind of shares a practise with him. I mean‚ they trade ---take care of ---each others patients. That's Kate DeLong. Her son's a psychiatrist in Palo Alto also. Olifton Lamb was in dramatics and was really very good. A very quiet fellow. And an athlete. Hightower Kealing was more of a sophisticated fellow. Except for being black there wasn't any difference between him and anybody else.

Yeager: Can you tell me a little bit about him? He's no longer living.

French: Hi‚o:htower Kealing isn't?

Yeager: No‚ he passed away last year.

French: Oh. Well‚ hasn't Clifton Lamb

Yeager: No‚ he's living.

French: Oh‚ that's nice.

Yeager: And Anna May is still living. died too?

French: Anna May is? Oh‚ good. I'll have to get in touch with her. Well‚ I didn't know him. I just knew he was a very sociable pleasant person. He'd just make a good college boy anywhere. Not in a playboy way but having a good presence. I would say he was a secure person. And I think he lived in a dorm. I think he must have been the one who lived in the dorm --and in those days they had house mothers --and the house mother of that building said she could not live in the same building with a Negro.

Yeager: She couldn't live in the same building with a Negro?

French: So he lived survived. on the third floor‚ I think‚ and the woman

Yeager: And she lived where? Down on the

French: Well‚ they always had the room I don't know how they are now --but there were the parlor on one side and the apartment on the other. Don't they have an apartment on the first floor. They do in the Quad.

Yeager: Yes. Do you have any idea of what he did after he left? French : HightO'iJer KE;alinp:?

Yes.

French: I don't know at all. It seems to don't remember knowing him except for about a year. me in he transferred here. the Cosmopolitan Club I

Yeager: I read something that he gave a talk. He had gone to Finland or something representing the Cosmopolitan Club. Do you recall anything about that?

French: Goodness. could have We didn't have gone anywhere. that kind of finances that anybody

Yeager: We talked about

French: My‚ you must pages. have done a lot of work going through all these

Yeager: It's hard to find some of these things. It sounded like the Cosmopolitan Club was a social organization. You spent a lot of time getting together for parties and things.

French: Oh‚ yes. That's what it was.

Yeager: So do you think that might have been one of the main reasons why black students came to this because they couldn't --Did you find that they weren't

French: Well‚ they were invited to it‚ you know.

Yeager: Oh‚ it was invitation only kind of

French: Yes. I think they would automatically be invited to belong and other people would be voted on if they had said they would like to be.

Yeager: So international students and black students were automatic members.

French: Yes.

Yeager: But not all the black students that were here at that time were in it.

French: Well‚ were there any others?

Yeager: I think there might have been. What year is this? 1929?

French: If there were others‚ I don't know who they were.

Yeager: Let's see in '29: Clifton Lamb. Maybe that was the only other people that would be~--It's interesting that Anna May Lucas was a member of it because according to my records she wasn't even here in that year.

French: No‚ she probably wasn't‚ I imagine just her freshman year. She went h1to nurses' training and also she got tuberculosis. She lived in town. Her father was a barber in town I think. They were a Grinnell family‚ so I always did know her. I had known her for a long time. Because she and the Renfrow girls were cousins and they were in the same Sunday school class that some of us were at the Congregational Church. So‚ I'd always known her.

Yeager: Is there anything else you can tell me about Anna May because I haven't been in contact with her yet. She's in a nursing home. She's not in very good health I don't think.

French: Oh. Well‚ she was a very light colored girl. She liked to sing and I think she took music. And she was not accepted in the Women's Glee Club.

Yeager: Why wasn't she accepted?

French: She just wasn't acceptable. I think what they said was her voice didn't fit with the others. But I think it was just automatic prejudice. At that time‚ people would probably have thought well‚ my goodness‚ of course she wouldn't be in the glee club.

Yeager: In Grinnell ---do you remember whether there was a lot of restriction placed on black students?

French: That I wouldn't know. You mean where they could eat and where they could go?

Yeager: Well‚ the clubs that they were ---I mean‚ were they restricted from being members in certain organizations?

French: I would imagine that that was rather taken for granted. Like Marian Anderson not singing in Constitution Hall. You know‚ something taken for granted. Well‚ of course‚ I imagine that's the way it was. Now I didn't know it at the time‚ but I've realized later that their opportunities were a lot more restricted than mine were. We were in the same Sunday School class and I knew them‚ but of course they had to live in a different part of town.

Yeager: Oh‚ did they have to live in a different part of town?

French: Well‚ they just did because they were poor. The poor people's part of town.

Yeager: Yeah. O.K.

French: And there was a family‚ too‚ lived on Elm Street‚ south of here. So‚ as I say‚ we just took a lot of things for granted and I thought there wasn't any prejudice but I'm sure they would give you a different story if you talked to them. There are a lot of the Renfrow family around but they're not here in Grinnell. If they would come‚ they're very interesting people.

Yeager: Well‚ Edith was here yesterday.

French: Oh. Oh‚ for heaven's sake. I wish I'd gotten to see her.

Yeager: I talked with her and we had about an hour and a half talk.

French: How did she happen to be here? I wonder.

Yeager: She still maintains a house here and she visits a few times a year apparently.

French: She's a friend of Laura Wieman. They probably visited.

Yeager: Yes. She came with Laura.

French: Well‚ I imagine she didn't feel that ---Did she feel Grinnell was a good place to grow up?

Yeager: She did. She mentioned very little prejudice.

French: That's good. I'm glad to hear it.

Yeager: But apparently her older sister had different opinions. Alice.

French: Yes‚ Alice is ---I saw them in Chicago when we lived there just before we moved here. And Alice went through the Chicago telephone directory‚ all the Frenches‚ until she found us.

Yeager: Oh‚ my God.

French: She's that energetic. And I invited them over to lunch. That was just Evanel and Alice. And then Edith came and picked them up in a car. And Alice ---Well‚ she is rather bitter‚ I guess. And Evanel‚ I would say‚ is very bitter because of her fiance being killed on a road down in Florida. She was a teacher and her fiance was a teacher also.

Yeager: Evanel?

French: Yes. And he was just walking along the road‚ I guess‚ and was hit by a car. And by the time they got him to a hospital that would accept him‚ because he was black‚ he was either dead or going. And she later married a man who was an undertaker in Florida. But I used to know her as a laughing kind of girl‚ you know‚

Yeager: She wasn't that way anymore when you met her?

French: Oh‚ no she wasn't.

Yeager: So‚ she changed. O.K. Can you tell me --

French: I can tell you more about Anna May.

Yeager: Yes‚ I would love to hear more about Anna May.because I know very little. What did she end up doing? Did she go on to what career did she pursue?

French: Oh‚ you should have asked Edith. I don't know.

Yeager: You don't know that.

French: But I do know she went to take nurse's training and then she was back here with tuberculosis. And then she got married and I had a shower for her. And I just thought that was a real sensible ---you know‚ just something one would do --and I was going to have it over at the Quadrangle and a friend of mine told me that that wouldn't be acceptable. A lot of people in the Quad wouldn't like it. That surprised me because I just didn't know that. I didn't think of it. So I had it here at home. And it was the ---well the ones who had grown up together and gone to that Sunday school class I mentioned. And one of the women from that mentioned to me later that she feltawfully strange going to that shower. Well‚ I guess it got in the paper just like every notice does. And then later there was a letter in the paper from Professor Norris. And he was saying how wonderful and democratic the Conard family were and how ---you know‚ how ---praising the Conard family who had given a shower for Anna May Lucas. I mean‚ it was such an embarrassing thing. I felt terrible about it.

Yeager: Yeah. That someone had to write about it.

French: Oh‚ I mean as though I had done a good deed or as though she was the object of pity or charity or something. I was so sorry about that. But there was nothing to do about it except .2-£fJJ) S ‚de

Yeager: What year was this in? Do you have any idea?

French: It would be between 1928 and '30. It was an awful‚ awful cold year. Maybe it was 1930‚ because I remember walking down to Anna May's and getting my knees frozen and they ached in the cold for years afterwards. It was an awfully cold year and 1930 was a cold. year so it might have been 1929 or 1930.

Yeager: Did she marry someone from town?

French: No. They all married people from other places. See‚ there wasn't anybody to marry here in town. Not that I know of.

Yeager: Well‚ what was thought about inter-racial dating?

French: I don't think it was thought of.

Yeager: It was an absolute --

French: I don't think anybody thought about it. As far as I know.

Yeager: Can you give me any idea of the ---Were you friendly with any of these people in classes or was it restricted to this club that you were in where you knew these people? Did you know them outside of class?

French: Yes. Here's a fellow from South America. Yes‚ I did.

Yeager: Can you give me an idea of what they thought about Grinnell? Or of their experiences here? Is it vague in your mind?

French: You mean the ones from other countries?

Yeager: Specifically the black students.

French: The black students. Oh. Well‚ as I said‚ JHightower Keal:ing seemed to fit in and got along beautifully as far as I could tell. And Clifton Lamb was very quiet. He did his own thing. He came to meetings but he didn't ---I don't know how he was among the men but he was very discreet about -quiet about whatever he did. I never saw his family. They came for graduation. That was the first time I ever saw them. I think they lived in Moline or some one b.f the river cities.

Yeager: He lived in --

French: No‚ Anna May would be the only one that I would have seen other than in the

Yeager: Muscatine‚ Iowa.

French: Oh‚ yes. It was Iowa.

Yeager: What else can you tell me about the Cosmopolitan Club? What ---How often did it meet and what type of things did it do?

French: I don't know how often it met. Whether it was twice a month or how it was. We had speakers sometimes. And we had picnics and parties and bob-sled rides and things like that. It was meant to ---And then sometimes there'd be invitations to Ames or Drake or someplace to Cosmopolitan Club meetings there and that was interesting because they had lots of people‚ from the Phillipine Islands and all around. I would say‚ as far as I know‚ it would be mainly to establish a social group that those students could belong to. It wasn't especially educational. It did have talks sometimes.

Yeager: Was the condition of the Negro ever discussed by the speaker?

French: No. There's Anna May up there in the second row. She's right there‚ you see. She was rather a tall girl. And quite light. And another thing about her is that she wanted to get married in the Little Brown Church in the Vale. You know‚ that famous place up there in Iowa. And she said she couldn't. They wouldn't allow black people to be married there. Or Negroes as they said then. Later I wrote something about that. And then the minister there‚ he was terribly angry. He said that here I was‚ knowing nothing about it‚ and spreading bad words‚ libel and scandal about this wonderful church and that they'd never had any bias against anybody-. But how could he have known what happened in 1929?

Yeager: You wrote it much later?

French: Yes. There was an article in our church paper‚about this church. And there on the opposite page was an article‚ something about civil rights in Spain praising out diplomacy. So I wrote to the magazine about it and they forwarded my letter to the minister who was there and he wrote me this very angry letter. So I've always wondered and yet I don't think I'd want to ask anyone. I don't think I'd want to dig it up. But I've always wondered if somebody told her that ‚.she wouldn't be allowed or if she went and asked and they told her. I don't know.

Yeager: What church was this again?

French: This is the Congregational Church.

Yeager: The Brown~-

French: Oh‚ that church. The Little Brown Church in the Vale.

Yeager: In the Vale.

French: There's a song about the church in the wildwood‚ the little brown church in the vale. It's a very famous song. It's about that little church and cotmtless people are married there.

Yeager: So then you wrote the letter to the minister of that church?

French: Yes. In much later years. So‚ I don'.t know what it was. And I don't know what Anna May's life has been either.

Yeager: I just found out that she was living. I didn't even know that she was alive. She's in California. I'm going to have to track her down.

French: That's nice to know.

Yeager: Can you tell me were you involved in the connnunity with blacks in any way? Someone had mentioned that your mother was involved.

French: Well‚ when I was in college I was guardian of a young ---I had a little Campfire gt'.0Up1 ‚and Edith Renfrow was a member of my Campfire group.

Yeager: She mentioned that.

French: And then my mother worked a lot at Uncle Sam's Club. Do you know where that is? You know of it don't you?

Yeager: I know of it‚ yes.

French: It's down on Pearl Street I think‚ about a block south of the tracks. My mother was very active there. We had to drag ourselves down there on Sunday afternoons and go to a Sunday school which she conducted there‚ which we didn't appreciate. That long walk. So‚ yes‚ she knew the Renfrow family very well and I'm sure she helped them in any way she could to get on with their education. Because I've been told later by a friend that if there was anyone in that neighborhood in the southwest part of Grinnell that might go to college or could be encouraged to go to college‚ my mother was in there helping them in any way she could.

Yeager: Financially‚you mean?

French: Yeah. And encouragement. So I've been told that‚ and I don't doubt she encouraged the Renfrows; and whether she ever helped them with money or jobs or anything‚ ·I don't know.

Yeager: How was your mother looked upon in the community? She was quite radical for her day. How did other people view her activities.

French: Well‚ I could tell you ---of course‚ I wouldn't know too much because we were all kind of off-center. For one thing we were Quakers. For another thing we'd been pacifists through the first Worid War. Which I couldn't quite understand because the teachers in those days were so terribly gung-ho and patriotic. And we'd get that at school and come home and get the other. So we were strange people to begin with. But I can ---I guess you know my mother ran for governor on the socialist ticket. And of course that was ---And also she went on a -‚ tour of Russia and gave talks. Of course that made her a communist. My father told me that they went to a funeral. I think that it was down at this little white church --it's right down the block down here. And he heard someone behind him whispering to her neighbor and she said‚ “That's Mrs. Conard. They say that she's a communist. She does a lot of good though. It kind of makes you wonder.“ So that's as near as I ever heard of what the public might have thought. I also know that when she ran for governor that here in this ward she got‚ well‚ maybe seventeen votes or something‚ which was a courtesy. I mean‚ she appreciated it because they didn't want her to be governor and they weren't socialists. But that was a kindness‚ I think. Arid after the first World War at the Armistice celebration‚ they asked her to give -a talk and she thought that was awfully nice.

Yeager: She gave a talk there?

French: Wherever the celebration was. I don't remember. There was a big bonfire at Ward Field. It wouldn't have been there. But then there was probably something in church or someplace. I was eight or nine at that time. I didn't go to it and • So that was nice. I know the folks in the southwest part of town ---she'd go ---oh‚ she had fallen arches and she had a lot of trouble walking ---but she'd go trudging down there and call on people and help them in any way she could. Get them coal or whatever. And I know that they considered her a great friend. She told about one house where she'd never called because they weren't needy people at all. She just decided to go in one day and found that they'd felt kind of left out‚ that she'd never called on them. So she did. Also‚ I remember her calling on some old people up here in the northwest part of town near the older houses‚ little older ones at that time. And people at that time just got relief in the form of what was handed out to them. And they would like to have had some cheese. Of course today they could get 5 lbs.of cheese. Well‚ anyway‚ things like that she tried to do for people. Then I knew a girl who had to go to a tuberculosis sanitaril]]l. She was in my class at school and I certainly didn't like her. That was just because I didn't want to be identified with poor people. I wanted to be regular. But that must have been ---oh‚ third grade‚ you know‚ and this girl had to go to the TB sanitarium (or maybe it was another one) ---anyhow‚ some girl had to go to a TB sanitarium or maybe more than one and my mother helped them get underwear to take and getting her dresses fixed up and stuff like that.

Yeager: So she really did work --

French: Oh‚ she was just a one-woman social service bureau.

Yeager: Was there some kind of organization in Grinnell ever that served as sort of -- Fr-eono.h: Oh‚ yes. There was a social service league and she worked with that.

Did that cater to black families in town or just all poor families?‚

French: Oh‚ anybody. They'd all be the same in that respect. Though I doubt if these black families needed really. I think they were independent. As far as I know. See the Renfrows' father was a chef. And he couldnit work at home much. He had to move all around to get jobs. And their mother ---I think they all worked in jobs. And Mr. Lucas. was a barber. And another family that were here just temporarily named McClelland ---and he shoveled coal at the heating plant. That girl was quite a different kind of girl. She always looked down at the ground‚ and shuffled when she walked. We all -.;;rent down to the post office to buy thrift stamps. My parents let me buy a thrift stamp which was for the war. They were willing for me to do that. And this one girl‚ Willa McClelland‚ had no money. And I remember looking back and seeing her sitting on a swing just listlessly swinging back and forth because she had no quarter.

Yeager: I'm trying to see. Do you recall the names of any black students that.went to Grinnell that we haven't talked about?

French: As far as I know‚ they were the only ones. I di~n't> I feel sure these were the only ones t4at were here at the time I was here during those four years. That's all you have on your list isn't it? Yeagei:r: Yes.

And I wouldn't know about any a~ter that because I wasn't here.

Yeager: When Anna May came back to Grinnell after nursing school‚ she didn't go back to the college did she?

French: No. She was just at home. She was sick.

Yeager: O.K. Did you know anything about the Rosenwald Fellows? Does that ring a bell to you?

French: No‚ it doesn't.

Yeager: Was your mother involved in the NAACP?

French: Not that I know of. She was in a lot of causes and she might have been.

Yeager: How old was she when she passed away?

French: Seventy-five. She was an invalid during the latter days of her life. The last two years she was totally incompetent out in St. Francis Hospital.

Yeager: So the goals of the Cosmopolitan Club were mostly social?

French: As far as I know. I think it was to make a social background for these people and help them be part of the community.

Yeager: Were the white students in this who were Americans in this group‚ were they unusual people? (looking at the picture)

French: /-Well‚ I'm trying to think. John Shields certainly wasn't.

Yeager: He was --They were just all kids from the --He was from Germany --They were Iowa kids as everybody was in those days‚ .almost all. She was a farm girl. (pointing to picture in the Cyclone) This is Ann Lois Auten?

French: Ann Lois Auten. And she was a Swedisih girl but born in this_ country. They were a Swedish family from a Swedish community in Iowa. She was president of the YW‚ Elizabeth Webster. And ilor.a Studier was a lovely musician. I've recent years. She's become fairly affluent. always was. seen her in I guess she Orville Slnarnborg He became I a doctor i athlete. I think he was Swedish. I: guess. He. was an i. Russell .Petersen. 1 He was our ‚class ageri.t ‚for>cquite And he died in the forties of a heart attack. awhile. Edmund Morrison when he got out was kind of of school. a big shot lawyer type of guy. I think they were just ordinary run people.

Yeager: Were these people who of these people? were not involved in fraternities‚ most

French: Of course‚ we didn't have fraternities or sororities. They had had literary societies‚ but those were gpne by the time I got here. That was kind of similar to a sorority in that you were either accepted or rejected. It had that feeling about it. It could be difficult.

Yeager: So these weren't people who were rejected from any of those things.

French: Well‚ you can see that there were a variety of people there. Now‚ there weren't any beauty queens there or the main athletes‚ people that got their identity in some other way‚ you might say. Or maybe ---I'm just wondering about the people that were gung-ho in science‚ you know‚ dead set on something. I think it's a fairly representative group. Maybe we were more simple-minded than some. I don't know.

Yeager: Did you know any other black students before you actually were a student here at Grinnell? Had you heard of any?

French: In those previous years. I don't remember any. Do you have any on the list there?

Yeager: Yes‚ I have names.

French: Maybe if I'd see the names I'd know about who they were.

Yeager: This is the one you saw from '13. And these were people in the '2O's before you came. You came

French: Oh‚ I remember Siebert Dove. He was a foreign student. He was from Jamaica. And I think he died while he was here‚ didn't he?

Yeager: No‚ that was Mona Chie. He died in town. He was from Africa.

French: He's the one then who died of pneumonia.

Yeager: Right.

French: That was sad.

Yeager: Do you have any information about that that you ~ould give me?

French: No. It was just assumed that he just couldn't live in this cold climate and it just seemed very sad. Now Siebert Dove ---I wonder if he's the fellow ---There was one of these fellows that was just coal-black and I thought that was Siebert Dove.

Yeager: I think he was‚ yes.

French: And a very pleasant fellow. Likeable. He played the bassoon‚ I think.

Yeager: Now was he here before you went to school?

French: Yes. But you see I lived here. I was living here. I went away to school the year '23-'24‚ '23 to about '26. So I remember ---I believe he's the one I remember.

Yeager: He played the bassoon.

French: Yes‚ I thought so.

Yeager: Anything else you can remember about him?

French: No‚ he was just a pleasant likeable person you'd see around. I don't think people were worried about ---I've been told that they worry when the numbers come up‚ when they see a lot of black people. As far as I know they didn't worry or get obnoxious to one black person. I don't know. Gordon Kitchen. Now that's a familiar name. Was he a football player?

Yeager: He was ---Yes‚ he was a track star.

French: Oh‚ yes.

Yeager: He's still living. This name doesn't ring a bell? Alphonse Henningberg?

French: No‚ it doesn't.

Yeager: He lived with Richard Steiner‚ Dove. He lived with the Steiners. Did you have much contact with that family?

French: Well‚ we knew them pretty well. Especially during the first World War. My parents were pacifists and Mr. Steiner was also. And‚ yes‚ I can remember his coming over. People used to call‚ you know. They didn't visit. They'd call. And‚ yes‚ we knew them pretty well.

Yeager: You wouldn't happen to khow any involvement he might have had with black students? Steiner.

French: Well‚ I'm sure he would have an ---He was a very openhearted person. He was a very dramatic person. He was dramatizing himself all the time. But I'm sure he was also very open to people. I can't imagine his not being.

Yeager: Do you know whether his son is still living? Richard.

French: I don't know.

Yeager: Or any of the Steiners?

French: Gretchen and Richard. There were just two. And then one son who died here in college.

Yeager: Oh‚ he died in college.

French: That's what the Henry York Steiner Prize is about. That's in memory of that son.

Yeager: Oh‚ that's probably Richard Steiner then.

French: No. Henry York.

Yeager: Oh‚ Henry York. That's his name then.

French: Henry York Steiner. I think he was out with somebody at their farm and fell off a hay-wagon. Something like that. He was killed. So Richard Steiner and Gretchen were very‚ very outstanding people‚ tall and gorgeous. Royal features ---well not exactly that ---well you could imagine royalty of the ancient days. And black hair. Handsome people.

Yeager: Gretchen was his wife?

French: No. Sister. Henry York may have been the oldest probably. Then Gretchen and then Richard. They would be older than I am‚ But they'd only be in their seventies.

Yeager: Was your sister involved in any of these

French: Yes. She was in Cosmopolitan Club.

Yeager: Now‚ that was how many years before?

French: In 1925. She graduated in ---Well‚ she was in the class of 1924 and then she stayed out and taught a year. So she was the class of 1925.

Yeager: She would have probably known these two.

French: Yes.

Yeager: Probably a lot better.

French: Yes‚ she would. And‚ you see‚ there were more Chinese students then. Only three‚ ·when I was in college.

Yeager: What does this stand for?

French: Phillipine Islands.

Yeager: Steiner seemed to have been involved in it much more earlier.

French: Yes‚ I see he is.

Yeager: But he wasn't by the time that you were in it. Was your mother involved in the Cosmopolitan Club?

French: No. She wasn't.

Yeager: Can you tell me anything about restrictions in town for the black families? Edith Renfrow had mentioned that there was some discrimination in the town. Do you recall?

French: Well‚ that's what I would be interested ---that's why I say I was pretty naive in those days and they would know it from their angle and I wouldn't. She would know that and I wouldn't have understood it at that time.

Yeager: Did your mother ever have black students over to her house?

French: Yes‚ I'm sure we did.

Yeager: You don't recall the names.

French: I don't remember who would ---well‚ of course‚ we had a lot of people over. We wouldn't have ever thought of not having them. I mean we wouldn't invite them just because they were black‚ but we certainly would never have thought of not having them if there were some reas.Gn. You know‚ if they were in some category that were coming or had a reason to.

Yeager: It seems as though they were not singled out at all. From what you've been telling me they were pretty much

French: Well‚ that's what I thought at the time. But I'm sure from the way Alice spoke to me there in Chicago‚ that she had a lot more bitter memories than I would.

Yeager: What are some of the things Alice talked about?

French: Well‚ it was just her tone of voice really. And one thing was that she took piano lessons from Mrs. Spencer. And the way she said that she washed an awful lot of dishes for those piano lessons. And then her tone of voice when I said her brother really was quite an admired fellow. He was a football player and all. And I said he would come and work here Saturday mornings and I said I didn't know what work he did because we ---my brother and I-~-thought we worked like dogs doing everything that had to be done. And just ---oh‚ don't know ---just her attitude about that gave me the feeling that she thought‚ “Well‚ you were certainly pampered and we folks did the work.n So she felt that she had to work awfully hard for everything she got. In other words‚ people gave her little for what she gave them.in the way of just plain labor. And I'm sure she felt it was unfair. And she didn't go to college. She then went to Newton as a maid. And the others ---I don't think He.len went to college either because she married early. I guess she did later maybe because I think she school.

Yeager: I was told that Alice eventually went on

French: Did she?

Yeager: Yes.

French: That's nice. was principal of a to Hampton.

Yeager: She became a librarian.

French: The way she spoke to me I got .the impression that she hadn't had the opportunity. That she ---on account of being one of the older ones ---that she hadn't.

Yeager: She never was thinking of attending the college‚ Grinnell College?

French: No. None of them. None of the Renfrows were at Grinnell that I know of.

Yeager: Except for Edith. Edith went here.

French: Did she?

Yeager: And graduated.

French: Oh‚ did she? From Grinnell?

Yeager: I guess you were gone by the time --

French: '33?

Yeager: She graduated in '37.

French: Oh‚ well that's nice. She was a friend of Laura Wieman's. So that was later.

Yeager: Is there anything ---There's an interesting article that I found ---Clifton Lamb discusses race problem for Cosmos.

French: Well‚ that's the Scarlet and Black‚ 1929. I would have heard that. I'll see if I recognize it.

Yeager: It seems like you did discuss a lot of these social issues in the club because I ---in the newspaper it seems like they discuss that.

French: Yes‚ we did have talks and things. Well‚ yes‚ it wasn't like a dating club or anything.like that. It was a place to meet and talk. I guess any club has programs‚ hasn't it? Even a conversational club would have a program. This is interesting‚ the ideas in here. That intermarriage wouldn't take place anywhere except “in the lower classes.“ And I think isn't this from the day when thinking that ---the way you talked about people was well‚ they're just like us? You know‚ except for the color of their skin they're just like us. Any group could say that and that was supposed to be liberal. And yet I think people in general think nowadays that recognizing people's individuality is the important thing. Not to say that they're just like us. That's not necessarily a compliment.

Yeager: Yes.

French: So‚ I just wondered.

Yeager: I'd like to read you a quote from this article. It says that: “Tolerance will help eradicate the barriers between races and nations. One cannot be loyal to his own country until his tolerance‚ his sympathy‚ his understanding are present to perceive and appreciate both virtues and vices of his nation. He must know how it is looked upon by other nations‚ wherein it can be bettered‚ why it is that tolerance is the key to its knowledge.“ Talking about Cosmopolitan. It hints at race‚ “breaking down barriers between races“‚ but I'm wondering whether they're talking about races in a more general sense as opposed to the black race or another ethnic race.

French: Yes. I mentioned that we had to do with other national groups.

Yeager: Was that probably the word used in a broader sense? You really didn't discuss then racial discrimination?

French: What we did‚ speaking of programs‚ the students from different countries gave talks about their countries. And then we'd have an international tea in the spring sometime. And have exhibits and things.

Yeager: Did you find that these international students like ---oh‚ well‚ I guess you didn't know Siebert Dove ---were there any black international students at that time? No‚ I guess there weren't. They were all local. Did these people have a hard time adjusting? From foreign countries?

French: That's another thing you'd have to ask them because people put up a good front. I didn't know them intimately. Not many of them would have told me how they felt. And‚ of course‚ another thing when you get sent from another country ---by the time I was there they really weren't from other countries except this one Greek man I mentioned and two Chinese students. And some of them were just chancely born in the other country before their parents moved here. So they didn't feel that they were from there. I remember though that one of the Chinese students ---which one is it here? Not Raymond Tseng but the other one ---wanted to date one of these girls and she wouldn't. She ---I mean‚ this was one thing that ---There wasn:'t any. interracial dating with Chinese. And she thought he ought to know better than that.

Yeager: And so there were very stt.ict social norms that people followed and they didn't dare to break down those barriers.

French: Yes. It just wasn't the thing if you get the idea. There was another fellow named Fanchen Loh ---I guess he isn't here this time ---a very‚ very sharp Chinese fellow.

Yeager: How many years were you in the Cosmopolitan Club?

French: Well‚ I suppose during the time I was here.

Yeager: The whole four years.

French: You know‚ because of my parents and my older sister being in it‚ I probably got elected right away just on those --They woulldtl't want to ---I couldn't very well be omitted probably.

Yeager: Did your mother talk much about the ---She wrote this very .interesting piece on social ideals at Grinnell and she does devote some of this to specifically the black experience --the underground railroad and things like that. • Was that stuff discussed in your home? The Quakers p:hayed a great role

French: Well‚ of course‚ the underground railroad ---it was a >Very romantic bit from way in the past so you were apt to think about it as very mysterious and all that. I have known a lady who died not long ago at a hundred and three down at Mayflower Home that told me about the underground railroad. And her:i grand£ather. • ; So you see :that's way hac~. Nearly a hundred and three‚ her grandfather took part in it.

Yeager: Who was it?

French: Her·name was Olivia Johnson.

Yeager: And her grandfather was --

French: He lived down near Lynnville or south of Lynnville and they would come ---let's see ---the Missouri River way over in southwest Iowa somewhere ---well‚ I don't know where they came from ---I may be mixing up some other story there. Anyway‚ they would come to her grandfather's farm. It was southern Iowa and most of the people around there were southern sympathizers. And so they ---one of the famous stories in her family was that her father --Something had happened bringing in these people and the little boy was out there. H~r grandfather said to him‚ “Don't tell anybody what thee saw.“ And he said‚ “What did I see?“ Her grandfather answered‚ “None of thy business!“

Yeager: People were smuggling --

French: Yes. He hadn't seen anything·but his father had told him to shut up. And another time they had a Negro woman and her baby upstairs and one of the neighbors came ih:.and visited all afternoon and they were pretty scared that it would be found out. But the woman was able to keep her baby qui.et all afternoon. It had to be very secret. whil~ that wcrnan was upstairs. I suppose they kept them in a barn. I have some of her stuff that she wrote because I took some of it down for her and then she later had it published and a niece of hers has it. So I could look up that if you're interested in it. It'd just be a few sentences.

Yeager: That might be interesting. You don't happen to have anything that your mother wrote?

French: Not more than you have probably. But it would be over at the But it would be over at the Grinnell Rl:mm‚. You mean on the subject of black people?

Yeager: Or even general‚ something like this on social ideals because she seemed to be concerned about civil rights and things like that.

French: No‚ I wouldn't have anything more than what's available over there. I was trying to look up things for Mr. Jordan and I just didn't have anything.

Yeager: O.K. Any other things that you can think of.

French: Having to do with black people in Grinnell?

Yeager: Yes.

French: You see‚ I really have very little to offer here.

Yeager: Well‚ yourve offered some little --some tidbits of information about ---for instance the Quad that was an interesting thing‚ especially since Anna May was a student at the college.

French: Well‚ she lived at home.

Yeager: She lived at home.

French: Yes‚ but she was a college student.

Yeager: There were some black students‚ though‚ who did live on campus. These two did. Ilightm.;rer and

French: Yes. But I told you how one of the housemothers felt about that.

Yeager: What about Clifton? Was there any stories about his --

French: I don't know whether ---He might have lived in town somewhere and worked for somebody. They used to fire furnaces and shovel walks and things like that that don't need to be done nowadays. There were lots of jobs like that. And so Id 't know whether he lived on campus or not. High tOW.EN;: Keal:i.ng was the first one I know of that lived on campus.

Yeager: Hightower Kealing left very shortly after. Clifton Lamb wrote me in this piece that he sent me that‚ “The otJher black at Grinnell was one Hightow~r‚ K‚ealing‚ the son of the president of some small denominational black college in Kansas City. ~oolin~ couldn't adjust to the rural setting and so he dropped out at the end 0f the first year.“

French: Well that fits in with the sophisticated image of having a'‚ sense of being somebody which he definitely had. And Clifton Lamb knew how to ---well‚ I guess he'd been well schooled in making himself take the position people would force him to take. I mean‚ t‚o gett al;ong. Now that's interesting. I didn't know that. So he was really only ---So he wouldn't be in here anywhere.

Yeager: I couldn't identify him in the yearbook. I got his name through Clifton Lamb.

French: And all these names. Might that not have been ---Well‚ I'd have to go through every hall and:see if I happened to see it. Which I don't happen to right now. I wasn't very aware in those days of a lot of things.

Yeager: Do you think there was a lot of racism in Grinnell from your angle? Looking back.

French: I think that in most any town‚ like a southern Illinois town where we lived‚ that a family that has always lived there is accepted because everybody knows them and they have their place. Other people coming‚ in‚‚ ~a.ten' t. During the second World War there were some Japanese students that came that were brought out of the concentration camps and brought here had a hard time in Grinnell and were insulted and I don't know if they were assaulted but I'm sure they had to be very careful. And that was a bad time.

Yeager: Were you here during World War II?

French: No. My parents had a couple of them ---asked a couple of Japanese girls to come here. And the Steiners had a boy or two‚ I think‚ at their home. The girls were invited over there to a supper one time. They had such a good time‚ you know‚ just laughing and having fun. They said they had a nice time.

Yeager: Was your father actively .involved in a lot of these things?

French: No.

Yeager: He wasn't. It was just your mother who was very --

French: Yes.

Yeager: Did she work at the college? She was a teacher.

French: Yes‚ but only as a volunteer‚ as a lecturer or something. She taught sociology and she had a Ph.D. and then she went back to Columbia in about 1925-26 for another refresher year and she taught sociology‚ but she never was given much status. And I've always felt that Mr. Nollen‚ President Nollen‚ was to be honored for having her on the faculty because there'd be letters and obj:ections and all‚ “Having a communist on the faculty!“ So he had to stand up for her. She never got recognition as an actual faculty member or got paid. Still it was good for her.

Yeager: And she enjoyed the teaching‚ I guess.

French: Oh‚ yes. I think she didn't teach very objectively as far as I know. She was so very concerned about these things. And she did have people go out and make interviews with all kinds of people. And she was in touch with laboring people and union people and she would have them talk with the folks in that part of the community to find out how people lived and how they thought.

Yeager: That's interesting. So she knew quite a few people it sounds like.

French: Oh‚ yes.

Yeager: I'm trying to think if there's anything else I have to ask you on that. White students did interact with black students. I mean‚ there was no ---Other than in Cosmopolitan Club there was a lot of interaction obviously.

French: That's why you'd have to ask them. L keep telling you I was very naive and just think I had no idea that there was anything objectionable to having Anna May be my guest anywhere.

Yeager: It's unfortunate then that all these people are not living. It's very difficult to go back and try to recall history. You wouldn't happen to know what plays Clifton Lamb ---Did he perform --

French: Oh‚ yes. Especially in Emperor Jones. And I was back here one time when he in later years ---I wonder when that would have been? ---played Emperor Jones again‚ this long scene from it. Wasn't he a drama teacher somewhere? A professor of drama?

Yeager: Yes. He came back to Grinnell?

French: Yes. Sometime and he gave this one-act performance of something. And he was Emperor Jones. He was wonderful in that.

Yeager: When was this? Were you still a student then?

French: No. I would have been back ---You see‚. my parents lived here and I would have been back for some unknown reason. You know‚ you come back once in awhile. And I can't think when that would be. ·Well‚ my goodness‚ maybe it was shortly after I graduated. It could have been early 193O's‚ shortly after I graduated. I don't remember when it was. (Probably fall‚ 1935.)

Yeager: Because he stayed on a year as an assistant in the drama department.

French: Oh‚ he did?

Yeager: But you said he was a professor by then?

French: It might have been just the year after ---the year he stayed on. He might have done it as a special ---But I don'.t think so. I thing he came --